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Episode 93 - Maggie Carr - "Diary of a Wimpy Airway" - MSE Palate Expansion

1:06

Hey everyone, it’s Emma Cooksey here and I'm your host.

So I'm delighted to be back and I had a little break in between seasons of the podcast.

1:15

But now I'm back with the next eight episodes running until the end of me and at the end of May will reach 100 episodes which is super crazy to me but I'm planning on doing something to kind of Mark that Milestone.

1:34

So if you have any ideas, Is just let me know.

And my email is sleep, apnea stories at gmail.com.

And what I'm thinking at the moment is maybe some sort of Zoom party and where we all get on Zoom and just chat and maybe have like, you know, a free-for-all Q&A and maybe we can, you know, give away some prizes.

1:57

But anyway, maybe like let me know if you think that's a good idea or not, and because I don't want to do something that you think is lame.

So I just wanted to recap some ways that you guys can support the podcast.

2:13

I get so many really lovely emails from people saying, you know, how much particular episodes meant to them, or they feel less alone or they're just like getting a lot of information.

They didn't know before and to follow up with their doctor about and I love hearing that.

2:30

So there are some specific ways that you can help support the podcast going forward.

As I I try to make it into a financially sustainable model.

So one of the things that's exciting is Spotify have just added a link where you can support the podcast directly with like a monthly contribution.

2:56

And so if you want to try that out it's there's a link in the show notes and you just go there and it will give you an option of how much, you know You want to support the podcast by every month.

So I super appreciate if anybody wants to do that.

And another thing you can do, which I think a lot of people underestimate how important it is is completely free.

3:17

But you just go on rate and review follow or subscribe to the podcast.

So whether you're listening and apple podcasts or Spotify, you would go and click to follow or subscribe and then you can go and rate or review the podcast.

3:36

East and there and that just helps other people to find the show.

And so I really appreciate that as well.

The other thing I've been busy doing is updating all of the links on my shop section of the website.

So if you go to sleep apnea, stories.com and click where it says shop.

3:54

I have a couple of new affiliate links for like services and products, I think are really great. so, today is an episode about pal expansion with an M, SE Appliance Since I've been off the air, there was a big national news story about a lawsuit around the agar.

4:18

EG GA appliance which the dentist was.

You know, telling the patient that this would help bring their jaws forward, like serve change, their palate, and improve their sleep, and, and the ended up doing harm to the patient.

4:41

So, that's why there's a lawsuit.

And I think, in this discussion, the whole like pal expansion debate, just got a lot more controversial.

And so what I'm trying to do Do is show some different size to it.

4:58

So later in this season, I'm going to be interviewing an orthodontist who's going to speak directly to that agar lost.

You know, like the situation and, and walk different appliances can and can't do and where we are with the research around it.

5:14

And so I'm hoping that will give us a different perspective because I want to, I don't really have.

Obviously, I went through my own pal expansion, that fail.

But I've also talked to other people who have found that, it's really help them and help them sleep apnea.

5:33

So we're not in a position where we have enough scientific research to say, you know, the palate expansion is definitely a treatment that helps sleep apnea, right?

It's just not, we're not in there yet and but I still want to continue talking to people and having them share their experiences.

5:52

Because this is a treatment that people like there are Doing and so yeah.

So today's episode is with Maggie car and Maggie is in Vermont where she's a small business owner.

6:07

She owns a coffee shop and if you listen carefully during our interview, you can hear a little bit of coffee being made in the background, which I kind of loved Maggie.

Has been on a house Journey focus on treating the causes behind her chronic fatigue and constant brain fog.

6:25

Diagnosed with sleep apnea in 2021 at the age of 27, at the time of the interview, she's in the process of trying to treat her sleep apnea using a fixed oral Appliance called an MSC palate expander.

6:43

So we're going to get into all of that and here is my conversation with Maggie car baggy.

So nice to meet you and you want to just start off by telling people where you are in the world.

And a little bit about what you do.

Yeah.

So I live in Vermont and I went to college here but have been a New Englander my whole life and I own a small business.

7:09

So I my husband and I run a coffee shop in a ski Town out here in the mud River Valley.

And I and I mean, you know, we're here to talk about sleep and I think like becoming a small business owner is what for Really to address my sleep.

7:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That sounds like it would be really demanding on anyway.

And if you're not sleeping that yeah, some people tell their stories like it's really, it's your story.

It's up to you how you want to tell it.

And I suspect there's a whole bunch of things that happened as a child.

7:48

So it's up to you whether you want to start with that or whether you want to start with.

When you really notice that this is becoming a problem.

Come in your life and then you can kind of like go bat so it's up to you.

Where do you want to start?

I'll start with childhood because I think that will Trail just cover the cover, the foundational parts of being a kid and then, and then go from there.

8:07

But yeah, when I was a kid, I had, I think, I had to check in, with my mom.

It's funny because like, I learned having gone through some of this stuff today as like, I'm 28 years old now.

And so I've had to ask my mom a lot about what I was like when I was a kid because I don't remember obviously any But I always knew that my mom when I was three years old, I had my tonsils removed because I like I snored like a trucker is, what?

8:35

Okay is what I was told to do.

Sorry.

Sorry to all the truckers out.

There is a stereotype that probably shouldn't should.

I don't know.

The one trucker I have interviewed, did snore like a drink.

So, maybe maybe, yeah, maybe there needs to be like a campaign for that population.

8:55

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

For sure.

That's a whole another thing.

That's one of my favorite subjects.

But yeah.

So you were snoring when you really small and so did your mom just know to take you to any?

And here's take you to the doctor and say, look, her tonsils or yeah.

9:10

I don't know.

So, um, another question to ask Mom, but I think in my head I say like, oh, it was just like really annoying my family.

You know what I mean?

Like, like it was keeping other people awake.

And so like, my mom in her Her, you know, she's like, well, I got it.

9:27

I just got to get this taken care of.

So she took me to the doctor and I think and now that I think back on it, like I ask the question like okay, why wasn't I followed up with after having my tonsils removed?

Because had my tonsils and adenoids removed and on the surface, you know, like the problem was solved because I wasn't keeping my family up anymore.

9:49

And and so what I believe is that like I was Continuing to breathe in efficiently.

During sleep.

Maybe three your my life and not your nose.

Yeah.

But for my, for my whole life and so, yeah.

10:08

Tonsils.

And adenoids out when I was three, and then my dental work really didn't start and I know a lot of people kind of start to discover Sleep issues, like, when they start dental work, but my dental sort of story.

10:25

I didn't really start until I was how it was.

I will 2019.

So like pretty recently.

Yeah, but yeah.

So like I had a really small mouth growing up.

Had a tongue tie.

My teeth were all crowded.

10:41

I had a palate expander for like a little bit when I was a kid to get prepared for braces, but then the braces never came because sort of just family, family stuff at like, dental work of the dropped off.

And It just didn't happen.

Yeah, so I did have some palette expansion but I'm assuming that because the palate expander was removed, like a probably just shrunk.

11:04

Back my, my dentist growing up was like this is a small mouth, you know what I mean?

Let's expand this.

But and then that was it and in 2019 and lastly Maggie, you're kind of like your dentist is way ahead, nevermind.

Oh yeah.

11:20

So I mean that was that was early 2000s.

Yeah, a good start.

It looked.

With.

But then, in 2019, I I went to, it was post-college, you know, like I was doing the adult stuff like get myself, a local dentist, and that going drawing leaning.

11:41

Yeah, and yeah.

And the dentist remark, she was like, wow, your soft palate, comes back really far in the back and no one had ever said anything like that, to me before.

She was like your teeth are really crowded like you're going to have a hard time keeping these clean as you age, is going to lead to disease.

12:02

And I was like oh I don't want any of that.

And so she referred me to like the local orthodontist.

13:38

Orthodontist had a like, had a bunch of my teeth pulled.

Um, and so, yeah, I know, and, and that's one of those things just like growing up to like you go to the local family, you know, practitioner and write things like, oh, I need, I need several opinions.

13:56

So I sort of just took sort of like what I gathered from being a kid because like, I have two other siblings and we all were in and out of dentist, or orthodontist office.

And and so, like, I picked Things up like like, oh, you just go to these people and you trust them.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

14:13

And also like so there and they're saying to you, you have really crowded teeth in a small mouth.

So we're going to pull out teeth because we need to do that to make your teeth straight, which is total logic, right?

So it's completely understandable.

Yeah.

Right, yeah.

14:28

So, um, and it's funny because even like I have some vivid memories from my like intake with them because the normal like How they take your picture with the little mouth expander thing?

Yeah, you have all your your whole setup.

14:43

And they had to use like the children size, one on me.

And and I was and they were struggling to take good photos because my mouth, they were like, your mouth is really small.

So like even they were saying those things and it's like, okay, so let's take a bunch of your teeth out and I and even still like, I've gotten to like fast-forwarding a little like, I've had some consultations for Hooray for jaw surgery because I'm kind of going through the Gambit of like what do I do about this?

15:14

How do I know what's going to help?

What's not going to help?

Yeah.

How bad is my situation compared to other people's situations?

Like I've kind of uncovered a lot of different things.

I asked that surgeon, what they thought about extraction retraction and he was a strong like person behind that.

15:34

That was like a phenomenon that was happening and even humans.

Like, you know, now people are Staying like, they don't know you know, there's so many like elements going on.

Yeah.

And so when I first sort of got into this world I was like oh my God extraction retraction like that.

Totally, there's no way that didn't happen to me like but I really can't say one way or the other especially and I could have had like, you know, when your kid developing like it's slower progress.

16:02

But I will say that after having my teeth extracted that that's Might some of my sleep problems really did get like start to get worse the I had and I'm not even sure.

Which ones like I'm still learning.

What like a premolar is like when I'm right, right, right?

16:18

Anatomy like used anatomy of my mouth to point things out.

Like, I don't not sure exactly which teeth were removed, but it was all at once eight teeth removed for my mouth at 18, as an adult.

Yeah, because including my wisdom teeth, so, like those games, I've always enjoyed that as well.

16:36

Yeah.

And then sleep, Probably had four bicuspids removed and then yeah, for was.

And then the for wisdom, but like all the same time and like, I'm, I also want operation.

Yeah, and I was awake for the whole thing.

So I because I didn't want to spend the money on anesthesia because I was a newly college grad and had no money and no insurance was that traumatizing.

17:01

So it's interesting because like I think at the time, I was still just in this phase of like oh Things are normal.

You know what I mean?

Your Doctor is recommending this like I'm safe, I'm good.

This is a normal.

And so I wasn't really until after when I realized like, oh my God, like I just like kind of put my face through so much trauma all at once.

17:27

Like my face is totally moving and shifting like, how would it not like after that amount of trauma all at once?

Yeah, and I have these images from how much my face Was swollen after that.

And like, you see, people with the funny chipmunk?

17:43

Yes.

Like, I like my face, grew like three sizes.

And, like, my eyes were swollen.

I had like bruising all down my neck, like it was bad.

And I thought it meant to the degree where I thought I was going to go to work later that day.

17:59

Who after having all those tooth removed for my face?

So I think that like we normalize it but it's like very traumatizing for your face. and like and you're opening up spaces for things to start shifting and like so after that, I noticed like sleep was getting worse and my head and neck like super like lots of pain in my head and neck and was seeing like a chiropractor and then later was doing like massage and Bodywork and trying to fix forward head posture, all this stuff, but Yeah, so having all the teeth removed is one thing where I'm like, now that I'm So currently, I have an MSC expander and I'm working which were totally gonna get into have.

18:49

Yeah, here's my thing though.

So after they took the eight teeth out.

So was that in order to then do then put braces on you?

Yeah.

Straight.

Okay.

Right on.

So tell us about that.

Was it just like Fishin on braces?

Yeah, yeah I had a normal like Like ceramic, you know, like things on my teeth and yeah.

19:11

And that process was interesting because at the time the orthodontist knew that I was getting married.

And so I while I was going in as someone who was like, I want to make sure that I have my teeth are.

19:27

Okay, so when I as I age like, I'm not going to have problems, right?

Like I'm in the back of my head.

I wonder if my braces timeline became accelerated Because he knew that I was getting married and that I like, quote on quote wanted a perfect smile for my wedding which isn't actually something that I requested.

19:44

But so that's another element where I'm like an adult who had lived that long with, you know, like I had I had like my eyeteeth up up way high on my gums and so like, when I smiled it look like I was missing a tooth because it really way up and like I had survived my whole adult life that way and I was getting married.

20:03

You know what I mean?

So it's not like my Crooked Smile.

Didn't help me find like love or anything silly like that.

Yeah, um, but yeah.

And and when I was coming, it wasn't, I wasn't coming because I wanted aesthetically like to be treated.

20:19

I wanted to make sure I could have healthy teeth and I felt like as an adult, I deserve to have that conversation with my practitioner and she's so funny that that doesn't happen.

Yeah.

Like why are you here like yeah?

I guess because so many people are there.

20:36

Because they want perfectly straight teeth like because I've gotten to this extreme of talking to surgeons about.

Yeah.

And I'm like how much to a degree is this causing a problem that I want to put myself through all of this?

And it's like, well, I have wisdom teeth, they're not causing a problem now.

20:55

Like and when we say a problem, what do we mean like, how bad of a problem like, oh, I have a few crooked teeth now and my friend.

And like, is that really a problem for me?

Like driving that That conversation, you did the braces and then got married.

21:12

Yeah, and then so that then what happened like did you?

So you said that you were seeing body workers and different people because you were having pain like head and neck and stuff like that going on.

Hmm.

21:27

And then when did you really notice something with your sleep?

Yeah, well, I guess one thing that I haven't sort of covered it that like even After, you know, three years old, like, did it really fix everything in my Airway, or am I breathing at night?

21:44

And like I think the answer that is no.

Like, I think that I had distorted breathing throughout like my whole life and then, and then after the teeth thing, that's and like being an adult and having sort of, you know, more agency over myself, like started to realize, oh if I want to figure this stuff out and get to the bottom of it, like I need to To start testing myself.

22:07

I need to start measuring like how do I feel now?

And if I try this, how do I feel that?

Like, yes.

And the only way to figure it out.

It's the kind of start somewhere but during the pandemic I did a sleep study because I did actually I mentioned all of my symptoms to my new primary care.

22:28

And she said, this sounds like it might be sleep apnea and I was he recommended me for a sleep study and then I How much sleep study was going to cause blah, blah, blah.

And never went and so, but during the pandemic, I finally was like I think you know coming to this maturing state of like oh these medical problems isn't as I'm having like the only way I'm going to get to the bottom of it is if I do it myself and so like I went online and found a home sleep study which was actually through Loft and I think did you just do an interview?

23:01

It was literally just put began to be.

I did was with them dirty Marnier.

Yeah, he cried and I've had so many people message me and just say how much they cracked because into it yet because he had, he had had such a difficult time.

23:19

And he felt like the woman from laughter.

Really listen to what he has concerns were and really helped him.

So what was your experience?

Um, most of my experience was also during this whole recall.

Oh yeah.

23:35

So I mean I think I like totally had a good experience, but it was also, you know, I wasn't coming at it with like, having been trying to get to the bottom of something for years and years and years.

Like this was my first attempt.

So yeah.

I mean, total definitely good experience.

And even trying to get a CPAP after that was was like the only issue because there were all these recalls.

23:56

So so we walked it was a watch Pat device that you did your sleep study with?

Yeah, they just left in your own bed and yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cool.

That showed that you had sleep apnea.

Yeah, and so I what I'm like coming to understand two more.

24:12

Is that like sleep apnea?

Obviously like acting as if you think of like the all the different respiratory to strip disruptions.

That could happen to you in a single night, like a napkin is like at the top of the like, rushes like that.

24:28

Yeah, there's this whole like spectrum of other disturbances underneath that and that's one thing that I've been I've been struggling with consistency Pappy's because I almost like, didn't feel like I had like, literacy on respiratory events, like I understood, like, I was like, oh, if it's not an apnea, then you're fine.

24:49

But that, well, not that.

Well honestly, like the reason you think that is because doctors will tell you that.

But when you speak to enough, patience, you realize that the doctors are thinking is the insurance company going to pay for a CPAP are also.

25:06

Thinking about the long-term Health consequences in terms of stroke and heart attack.

So they'll say well it's my old so you're maybe not, you know, we don't know that you're necessarily be increased risk of stroke and heart attack.

But here's the thing, the more people that you talk to that, have my old sometimes, extremely mild, sleep apnea, where they have, you know, an H, I have two or three but they're arisal threshold means that they're waking up every time and their nervous system is gay.

25:36

Actually all night and there's heart beating all crazy, you know.

So I think that that's part of the misunderstanding.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If that but you're into figuring that out for yourself.

Yeah.

On my own.

Yeah.

Well, because I was having a hard time interpreting like my results because so when the laughter results came in it was a chai of I think 10.

26:00

So like Mi and I did have a formal study done to kind of Confirm it like a year later.

He loves polysomnogram.

Yeah.

And I went through the channels for financial assistance at the hospital and that's like the only reason I did it because I did like I was able to get assistance but which is me just trying to remind people that those programs exist in me.

26:29

They so tell people about a little bit more about that because I know like just from a couple of my friends who do work Round and like advocating for people in healthcare settings that those programs exist.

I don't think that there's a lot of understanding and the general public about them.

26:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think, like, partially in that people don't want to accept help.

Like, there's that stigma, I think what I've learned in life is that there's literally a program for everything and like, if you ask, there's probably programmed for it.

27:01

So just like ask.

Yeah.

And because you don't, you Rightfully with, with the hospital.

I'm looking to do a sleep study and you know, I need help to do that.

Well, at that point I had views, it was because when I was in college, I was going to an out-of-network Hospital in the area begin.

27:22

So like I knew that that hospital had a financial aid program because I owed money for visits and while I was in college.

And so I was aware of the the assistance programs in general but Yeah, so I didn't ask, I kind of just went and like, knew that there was probably a program and that it, I would figure it out.

27:44

It sort of, is sort of how I did it, but I think like, calling in advance and like, learning about like, what the program offers.

Like, you do have to get like a fair amount of stuff together stuff together like it's never simple.

Your I mean, they're gonna want to see a lot of documentation on on your tax.

28:01

Returns, your pay stubs, and bank accounts.

And so it's a lot of likes.

Sitting down and just printing a bunch of stuff out, but I think people assume that they're not going to qualify for anything and that's not worth.

And sometimes people actually you know what are willing to put in that work?

28:21

Yeah to show that they qualify for it you know the ones that are going to get it.

So right.

Exactly.

Yeah well and I mean it sucks because it's definitely a barrier towards like varietal accessing it.

Just getting all that information together to mention if it's not your first language.

It or something, right?

28:37

Like if you're sure now yes or maybe you don't have a computer at home or even at like a normal printer at home.

Yeah, so I mean I think that they are under utilized for sure which is not the point but that don't let the assumption that you're not going to get any benefit from a program to stop you from a Playa.

28:56

I think advice.

And so, what did the polysomnogram show?

So it showed pretty much confirmed.

It showed that I am 12 Still 10 to 12, but what it showed me in more detail was the arousals and that, like, I was having I was falling on that scale of like potential things that could happen to you during a night of breathing.

29:21

You know, like I was hitting like several layers underneath apnea but like a lot and yeah, yeah and I so I think it was something like 300 events over over the course of the night and so No, wonder you feel terrible, right?

29:38

And that just because it wasn't pinging as an apnea.

Like, I think it was confusing for me.

Because, like, I had heard like, oh, even if you have miles to got me, I like, and you're like, what's the Epworth sleepiness scale?

Is that was ravenous scale.

29:55

Yeah, yeah, that even people with mild sleep.

Apnea could be score, really high, on that scale.

And I think it goes back to showing that like, maybe It was in you know the dental the dental work that caused it but it's like it's all part of this like the symptoms and and even though it's not showing as an apnea like you're still seeing all these other respiratory events.

30:23

Yeah.

And it's all related.

I think that I was not taking it as seriously at first because because it wasn't severe and I think that like and I'm glad that I'm learning this lesson kind of young um in life and I think it's impart like do to like I listen to podcasts like it's my job and because I want to know other people's experience but it's like what I'm learning is the only way in hell that you're going to know if you feel better is if you try literally one thing and then yep like with power of reflection and observation and you know like traffic whatever kind of means of tracking you have access to like you just Have to you have to do it, which there is aware.

31:09

Run just do all of the work like they're just Adam and I kind of hate it for people when you know, people that are super new to, this will be like, so what am I going to feel better?

You know, and you have to be like oh that's not quite that easy and you need to eat a lot of it is just very trial and error.

31:30

So you started on CPAP and then how did you feel after that?

How long did it take to get this either?

During this shortage.

Well, I waited for a long time with lofty, take a fulfill, it that way, and then take it into my own hands after that.

And I bet their CPAP sitting somewhere in a local office that have no home.

31:49

You know.

And so I did my research to figure out like who Services respiratory sort of equipment.

So resourceful.

I love it.

I'd that I, I'm always like there must be someone who's thinking of or, like, who's got this.

Yeah.

So and that's something.

My mom taught me.

32:05

Like, you don't know until Do you ask?

Yeah so I got on CPAP that way and my journey like even up until this day, so because I got diagnosed and I think at the beginning of 2020.

So it's been like three years and like, I'm still struggling with like how to use the tool because there's so many elements of how do I feel?

32:30

How do I feel when I don't use it?

Like, I'm trying, I'm trying to expand my palate right now. so I'm trying to see if that's working and so I still don't have like concrete answers after three years of trying several different things on like what's working and what's not working and yeah and so So, as far as the machine is telling you, yeah, it's lowering your age.

33:02

I and like, all of that or that's so that is, that's one way that it's just whether honk real bad interment, right?

Yeah.

So, I mean, that is the HIV does.

Like I do have I get good sleep scores you know from what do I have the rest ResMed are my Era app and so on.

33:26

It is like I am getting good nights of sleep when I do use it but I'm trying all these other methods to like fix my air raid set up and so so high.

When did you start?

So I'm assuming like everybody did a ton of research before you plump for the MSE thing.

33:47

So when did you start like just as soon as you start see that you started exploring all these other things or how did that come about?

It was a little bit of a slow progress in terms of like I got connected to the CPAP world and was you know, trying to figure out how to is this a tool, you know, that's going to be in my Arsenal and how do I want to use it and and so that's sort of how I uncovered other options like Palin expansion and even like you know mandibular advancement device has all the all the things I love.

34:26

I eventually got in touch with the myofunctional therapist because my my tongue tie, the woman, I was doing body work with was like, she knew enough about tongue posture that she asked me the question and then that got me on another can of worms ropin.

34:44

Yeah.

And so, I did, I contacted the local myofunctional therapist in Vermont and she was the one who actually recommended that.

I go to the Airway orthodontist that I'm seeing now.

So she was like sort of there is like a little bit of a referral sort of train that goes on if you call the right person.

35:06

Yes.

So she said to me like hey it really seems like like you might need to work towards a tongue-tie release, which I haven't made any decisions on or anything at this point, but like you should go see what go get everything scanned go see what they are working on two sinks and then and then we can look at working together.

35:26

Her.

And so I know some people like they do myofunctional stuffer store and then make other moves or it's like sprinkled in between or they don't get my function therapy to laughter.

Like, it looks a little different for everyone.

I mean, I'm definitely in land.

35:43

Increase oral volume like yes, before doing anything else, right to see.

Like, how that goes and see how much you can gain.

Because I think that part, you know, it's different for everyone to definitely is Emma.

What did your Airway orthodontist say about what you should do.

36:01

So so I'm seeing Dr.New has who he has bounced around in New York like in Manhattan and Florida.

And now in Vermont and it seems like he's kind of settling in the Vermont area but he's got patient sort of all along the east coast right now.

36:19

Yeah, Cassie handy thing.

Yeah, that one and it definitely shows.

I'd like like, like a pretty constricted Airway and like, I have good space behind like my nasal cavity, because my tonsils and adenoids were removed and so that was good.

36:39

But when it came to, like, my lower airway because of my tongue.

Yes.

Like my tongue is just like a brick in.

There is what it really looks like.

Yeah, I think I'm in part.

It's like because I'm listening to other people's experiences like yours and like digging into all this research and And understanding that it's so different for everybody that like it's caused me to pause.

37:01

Like, when I got into that office, I was like, hey, before I even had the scan, I was like, I know you're going to tell me that.

I have a really constricted Airway that like my drawers too far back and I need surgery.

Like I'm going to be a good candidate for surgery and I'm like that's what happened.

37:17

And and at first I was like oh the only way to fix this is to go have surgery and now I'm starting to To question that.

And like one, I'm wondering, I'm more curious to see.

Like, how much do I have the power to do myself and, and see like, how much I can like change my posture?

37:40

Yes.

Whether it's like oral posture and even just like physical posture.

Like, from my breathing heads.

Yeah.

And like, am I breathing effectively?

And like, if I retrain my body to breathe better?

Is that gonna make me feel better?

37:55

And so on.

So, Like, not leaving anything out.

Yams of, like, it's all the options.

Yeah, because I think that, like, you can move, you can like, pull a lever here and get surprisingly good results.

38:10

You know?

And and that other people are showing me through their experiences that like, this is what worked for them.

So, tell us about what MSE is, I mean, so what we're doing now, with my Airway orthodontist is Is Ms. E on my upper upper teeth upper palate.

38:31

Maxillary, skeletal expand here.

Okay, there we go.

Maxillary skeletal expanded, okay?

And so the MSE for people who are completely unfamiliar, they make a surgical incision on your palatal suture at the top of your that, right?

38:52

It depends.

There are.

There are less.

Less invasive options and it's a good thing to know that like 11 even MSE.

Provider, might suggest surgical surgically, assisted?

39:08

And another might not not it and so that's a good thing for people to know.

If, if you do it surgically where you get the, where they cut the suture and the top, you get more rapid expansion, okay?

And I think that's something that you just need to know whether or not you think you need that.

39:24

So do you do that or what?

Did you do know?

So - technically still slightly surgery, call because the the screws that everybody tells you that they put in your palate, the I have Force four screws up into my palate into the bone.

39:42

And that is still technically somewhat surgical because they're screwing, they're screwing some of the engine make an incision down so interesting.

No, and I mean, in part, like everyone is like, well, I'm 20, I'm At the time I was no, I was doing up.

39:59

Yeah, so but that's right after the cusp of when they supposedly say you can't you can't expand on your own.

Yeah, I didn't have that done, but so my first week with that was was like, was a lot.

So kind of almost looks like a square of metal almost and they, they attach it up into the bone, right of your palate.

40:24

And then how often are you turning it?

It like, so you have to turn it to expand, the metal to open up the and yeah.

So and if you haven't had the surgically assisted type like they kind of prescribed how many times to turn it at least until you get a split.

40:42

So you basically manually like over time creating enough tension and pressure to like split it yourself which was pretty cool because like I was I was there when it happened like you're turning And then and then a few hours later, like, I woke me up actually in the middle of the night because it was just like, big release of tension.

41:05

Wow.

And yeah, my ears were ringing, like a little bit, like your whole body sort of just like addressed through phases, like adjusting to it after.

But so I was prescribed, I think one guy was one turn a day to start.

And this provider like, I would say, from what I've been Gathering, he is a little bit slower in his approach in general.

41:26

Because I think the max amount of turns that you might be able to do in a single day.

Like recommended by the manufacturer is like up to seven turns or something.

Oh wow.

I've never been very rapid.

Yeah, I've never done more than one turn a day.

I will say though that when I first had it, like, I contemplated having him remove it because I was like it was really, really funny people and I care about.

41:50

Yeah.

And what he described was that, like there were at least once the suture does split, it's like It was like you know like 27 years of tissue that wanted to go there the whole time but never could.

42:05

Yeah powerful like release but the pressure was like really bad like migraines, like staying in the dark all day for like a week and obviously like your ears.

You have small holes in the roof of your mouth now and so you have to like like when A diet.

42:27

And yeah, so I did I did have to take some time off for that and I did contemplate having him take it out during that week and so as far as like so he reckons there's 20 more turns and then what happens at that point at that point they would like cut the arms off that are mounted to your molars.

42:49

That are kind of stabilizing the whole thing and get you into braces.

But the like, the metal, Little metal part on the roof of your mouth would stay there until.

And I'm not exactly sure how long.

43:04

But until like, the suture is healed and you basically develop new tissue and like new bone.

So that like once it, once you let it heal, like it stays.

Yeah.

Then what's the plan?

43:21

You're not.

So you're nice.

Has so braces to then close up the So you're not so you were thinking about the double jaw surgery, part of it, but the moment you haven't planned that or you don't, you're not sure.

Yeah so I once step that I've skipped so like originally the plan was expand and then in preparation for surgery but along the way, my provider has been telling me that there are, you know, there's always things you can try and it's really a matter of, how does it make you feel?

43:56

What?

Been helpful to have him.

Constantly reminding me that it's really like like you are the person who knows the best here.

Yeah.

Um and so one thing that now instead of like sole just kind of preparing for surgery, we ordered a device called the crane, which is a face mask, the poet's before word.

44:19

Yeah, Sophie face pulling down which is like I feel like I'm I'm running small experiments on myself.

Oh yeah.

I know bunch of people have done that though.

Yeah, so this one is a little different in that.

Like some face masks are like, you're just pulling tension using rubber bands from your device in your mouth.

44:40

Yeah.

And it's like part on her forehead part on your chin.

Or there's one that's like part on your forehead.

Yeah.

But the, the crane is, like attached to a c-spine collar.

So, like the next stabilizer that they use, like, Emergency to get settings or like if you had a injury and so this one seems like because what I'm worried about is like, all right, I'm working on my posture in general.

45:08

If I'm going to start pulling my face I want to make sure I'm maintaining like a good like resting posture to start with because if you start pulling and then you pull bad posture with it.

Like that's not gonna that's not going to help either.

And so have you noticed difference just from since you started the Pension in your sleep or is it too early to know really?

45:30

I do feel like, I have feeling refreshed in the morning is it's like, I don't know what that feels like still.

So yeah, but I do feel like my daytime sleepiness is, it's not as bad.

Like I was, I was at a place where, like, I needed to close the door in my office and like, no sleep on the floor.

45:50

Yeah, yeah.

Or go out into the car and sleep in the parking lot, or Or just like straight-up call it a day and go home and give a bunch of things and which is a small business owner, you know, like it is that thing where you have some flexibility.

46:09

But then also you have a ton to do exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think like having Community where you know other people are in the middle of that tube is helpful and so like my Instagram is filled with people, you know, like go tell everybody about your wimpy Airway Instagram.

46:25

So they Go follow you.

So I started my own little Instagram documentation of my palate expansion which I think over time, I'll develop into sort of my own story of like my own trial and errors.

One thing, one thing I didn't really talk about right now is like a someone who's like living with disordered breathing trying to manage it.

46:47

Trying to figure out what's working, what's not working.

But like life is still moving on.

Like I have a business, I have a husband, I have, you know, all these things.

Things is like, I'm using an executive function coach right now because I've kind of just like accepted this reality of like, yes.

47:07

Hey, you had to sort of breathing and it's definitely impacting your cognitive function, like, and and how are you like, you're committed to feeling better, but like I needed, someone sort of, like, on my team for Like, making sure that I was going to be able to do all of that to my fullest capacity.

47:34

And and I think even if all you're doing like is trying to figure out how to take care of yourself.

There's just a lot of executive functioning skills involved and I like we were talking about, is that helps?

Yes, it has helped.

Yeah.

And um, yeah, so I like, I think in terms of what I wish people All like, in terms of treating their sleep apnea, and in this sort of roller coaster were all on, and the amount of executive functioning you need to have, just to even figure out one option and whether or not it's working for you, don't underestimate that and like yeah.

48:14

And like reach out for support because and I not like saying that because I feel like I'm always just like and how are you feeling about that to people?

And You know, and I think people don't think about it that much, but, you know, a lot of people live in denial that they're living with this chronic condition for years, gentle with yourself, and, and lie.

48:37

Be gentle with you, get support.

Yes, and no.

And the biggest thing is know that you're not alone.

And the rest of us are going through this too.

And it's amazing, you know, like one of the best things about what I do is just getting to hear from all these people who are All saying me to thank you for making that podcast because I feel exactly the same as the person that you were talking to me.

49:03

And it makes me feel like, okay well maybe I'm not crazy or it's not like there's something wrong with me.

No no no yeah no.

Yeah.

Well thank you so much for your time Maggie, I really appreciate it.

Yeah, I'm glad we got to talk for sure.

I am too!


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