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Episode 81 - Thomas Hinton - A Sleep Performance Coach with Sleep Apnea

1:35

Hey, it’s Emma Cooksey here and I'm your host.

So today's conversation is with Thomas Hinton, he's asleep, performance coach was circadian, Health Systems.

But aside from that, I really wanted to talk to Thomas because I think he understands sleep apnea from a lot of different angles.

1:53

So, he has sleep apnea himself.

He has it in his family and he also, Worked as asleep tack for many years.

So we get into a lot of these different things.

I really enjoy talking to him.

So, here's my conversation with Thomas, Hinton.

2:11

So Thomas, welcome.

Thanks for having me.

It's really nice to see you.

So what start I with I know you have your experience as a sweet Tack and then also your experience as a patient yourself having sleep apnea.

2:30

So which of those came first, did you train in sleep stuff first, or did you have sleep apnea first?

So honestly after you get diagnosed, I figured like, oh man, now it all adds up, you know?

2:45

Thinking about the things that were happening before, I didn't get diagnosed.

And so I started working as a technologist, so on.

So you might want to stay where you are in the country as well.

Oh yes.

Oh, I am Simon in small town, called East, Peoria, Illinois, okay.

3:02

Half hour subscribe.

So how did you get into being asleep?

Tag to begin with?

Yeah, so everyone always asks ask me like what my Y is in my why is my dad so He was 35 years old.

3:17

He died of a massive heart attack.

Oh gosh.

I'm so sorry.

No, thank you.

So obviously, I only know him through pictures and stories to tell me and so when talking to my mom, know she would always tell me, you know, like arguments nor and different things like that.

And I was back in the 80s like only thought anything about that, you know, and SolarCity, you're a good deep sleep while you were snoring, sawing logs.

3:39

And so I see pictures of him and he was a big guy, he was fit but he was a big guy, you know, and really it was just a mistake.

On top of the shoulders, no, real like that period And so that kind of what got me into it.

And now I'm kind of in that space where I'm trying to help people kind of prevent people from being my dad.

3:57

Yeah, because it people tell your mom, the time that they thought that undiagnosed, sleep apnea was an element like was or are you just kind of pieced that together afterwards?

Yeah.

It is.

These together afterwards.

Yeah, I was stationed with.

4:12

I'm like, hey obviously, you know, it can be hereditary.

I've Got it, you know what I mean?

So there's a really high chance that dad, do you know when she's like that.

So, but to answer your first to kind of go back to answer the first question, so I started working in the field and then that's when I was like, oh man, now all these, I've seen all these different like Cardinal features and symptoms of sleep, apnea, and I'm thinking back to when I was in high school, you know, I'm sorry, and I'm doing these different.

4:39

They like, I woke up.

I was waking up to foggy.

Like, I'm like my performance of school wasn't all that great.

And I'm just like, They had my dick of it impact me was whole time.

I just didn't know.

So as I mean, that's so common, I've talked to so many people that have gone through that.

So as a teenager, what would like, were you going to a doctor and saying like were you seeing a pediatrician that you were saying I'm so tired and like, are not really, it seems like that's not really.

5:06

Yeah.

No, no, that's not the people where they say, I was a teenager.

So I was in school and do my homework and I just kind of thought that side Is you know, so people just kind of tend to not go to the doctor.

Yeah.

And they attributed it to, you know, because I've been an athlete, all my life, no.

5:23

So there's like oh like you know, you're working out lifting your in that heat, you know, of course, you're going to be tired, you know, stuff like that.

So yeah, I think even then back in the 80s 90s, maybe the early 2000s because I graduated over 3, and even then it was it just wasn't.

This was nothing to really talk about, especially when it came to pee after sleeping.

5:42

Yeah, it's still an uphill battle now.

So, yeah.

Exactly.

No.

I know I think even like, you know, that's kind of what I think about.

Like even in the 14 years since I was diagnosed, I feel like things have changed for the better but they're still so far to go, you're everything Dane's things have gotten better but yet it's still.

6:01

Yeah, you're wearing is part of especially.

Yeah.

So there we have a lot of people still think it's a scam.

I just talked to the two patients, just last week and they're just, you know, I'm seeing all the type 2 diabetes or heart failure.

Oh, all these different things.

Hey, Have you ever had a sleep study, you know, and they're like, oh my doctor trying to get me to get one of those things but, you know, I think everybody's gotta tell everybody.

6:22

I talked to every one of my friends, you know, has a machine to Michael, because they have sleep apnea.

And I told him, I said, to be honest with you, I think even more people than you think have it.

Yeah.

Diagnosed.

I said, so it's not something that most you should take lightly.

I can't even acknowledge and agree with you more.

6:40

Yeah.

So Jonathan I convinced, you know, someone that isn't believing is for the car.

But yeah, I also happen to have a stroke or a heart attack and it will come knocking on our doors down.

Let me get sick.

Yeah, I know and that's the thing.

It's like you don't want it to get a serious as that, right?

6:57

Like so you're a teenager struggling with just being tired and having you know somehow managing to do all these Sports and things and then what happens like so you just kind of carried on and yeah I just kind of just kind of carried on and and I wasn't really like just the fatigue and what I like about That's really all it was.

7:17

I didn't have any other any other symptoms.

Yeah, we hear about that.

We that me the Fords drink for now.

It didn't really hit me until my wife reported and so she reported me snoring and stopping breathing in my sleep.

And by that time I had already been working.

7:33

The field already, kind of knew what was going off being a little more hidden about it and denial.

And so, she recorded me and I listened to it, and I was just like, wow, then I'm thinking myself, okay?

Heart disease is one of my dad's side of the family.

This Something that actually, you know, increases your chance of heart, you know, like, what are you doing?

7:51

You know, and so at that point, I was symptomatic.

I was very, I was very lethargic and just very tired and fatigued and just mentally wasn't there.

And so, I finally got, I got it taken care of, and I've never looked back since right on.

And so when you started training in the Sleep feel to be asleep.

8:09

Tak like what Drew you to it.

You just thought that it was kind of interesting or well.

Well, yeah, like I said it goes back to my dad knows a spectrum.

So my big goal was to try to help as many people as I can not end up like him.

8:26

Yeah, on the heart disease high or I mean overall I know other other health issues that sleep apnea exacerbates.

But yeah, I just wanted to put it to help as many people as I can.

Because I still have this, I could say the world mentality because it's something that's so simple.

It seems same.

Yeah, you know.

8:42

And you know some I'm always out there educating people.

Always like Kay like people have the conversation with your doctor talk to me if you need to, you know?

So I'm always doing that real quick, actually partnered with a company called sleep met-rx, and they do home sleep studies in will get access to this mission, to get a homeschool study that you get a prescription for therapy.

9:04

So I'm just out there not like, hey, like this, not that hard.

It's really, really easy.

Is that across all the states?

Yeah, yeah, anybody can beat anybody can do it.

It's actually virtually.

You know, so only take me pay out of pocket costs which is like way cheaper than what it would cost for Specialist of all the stuff and then you get a virtual visit with a sleep specialist you get a you get a home study and then you get a prescription for therapy all for like less than a fraction of the cost?

9:32

Yeah I feel like these companies are you know, the more that the home sleep study and Technology improves.

There's so many of these companies popping up all over the place which is great for access.

Please studies, right?

9:47

Like yeah, I think that can be a big barrier for people that they don't want to go and sleep in a Sleep Clinic and and all that stuff, but they can do their own home and makes a big difference.

11:28

So what did you tell me about working like so did you work in a sort of Sleep Clinic over seeing people having sleep studies all the time?

Yeah, yes.

I know all about that.

What do people need to know about that process?

Because I feel as though people that haven't been through that think that it's way more difficult and, you know, just have a lot of anxiety about the idea of sleeping somewhere strange.

11:54

So maybe you can tell us a bit about what that looked like.

And yeah, absolutely.

So I started, I work.

My first started off, I work for is called to ionize the eye and Eye Institute, close to Illinois.

Neurological Institute, I nicely.

And so, there is where Eagle people would come in and we would hook them up, want to upload it on various devices and different sorting stuff to the most important thing is that you are putting electrodes on them came to monitor their meeting.

12:23

And so that's where we will know what, you know, sleeping, what stage of sleep, your in if you're awake, all those different and then we also monitor your heart sponsored a histogram.

You can actually testing on the danger area, we monitor your ass to have an oxygen sensor monitors snoring.

12:43

So you're going to have a snore.

My calendar make though.

It is a lot.

I'm not gonna lie.

It's a lot.

We monitor your nasal or oral airflow.

So, you'll have these new sensors that go, like an instant inside your nose and kind of Exile.

Yeah, you monitor your leg.

We're going to have leg wires at that matches on your kind of like on the front of your icon.

13:03

With that muscle is called but right on the front that muscles on the front of your leg at the bottom there.

And so then we also monitor your abdominal, your dominant in your third finger through a secreted because they want to see effort.

So if someone stops beating their sleep obviously there's different forms of sleep, apnea there's hypopneas there's a structures.

13:21

The bad knee is there's mixed apneas and their Central axis and so monitoring the oral and nasal airflow.

Oh and then the the chest and abdominal airflow that helps us determine what kind of apnea your have and so it can be a little overwhelming but it's really not as bad as some patients.

13:38

Make it out to be in my experience.

That's all I have is no patient.

So I'm not going to sleep with all this stuff and then like five minutes in or out.

Yeah, because they're so tired often.

Yeah, I'm so tired of most likely we're coming in to see us or no, for an issue to get tested for they most likely have this.

13:57

Rare that I have kids happened was very rare in my experience, where someone's come in force to study, that didn't happen.

So great.

I think that makes a lot of sense to me because it feels like getting a referral for a sleep study can be an uphill battle for people, especially people who don't you know fit that kind of you know older overweight male kind of thing that that doctors are looking for.

14:24

So I feel like you know, I'm sure that you know it's getting bad.

Better.

And I'm sure that there's some great doctors sending those people for sleep studies.

But oftentimes, I think if you're not presenting and that way, it can be more like you advocating for a sleep study yourself.

14:42

Sometimes it is like that because again, like, if you don't meet those Cardinal features, that's how a lot of people get missed.

And so I know when I'm talking to people, whether it's on what I'm in clinic or if I'm not with them.

Yeah.

So I said I when I'm in Like we're you know, when I talking to - whatever whatever I'm doing, I scream for sleep apnea everywhere I go because it because it's everywhere.

15:05

Yeah, a lot of people don't know that and to your point, you know, like four meetings a lot.

So, when I tell patients I have sleep apnea, there's like you don't fit the bill, I'm like, well, there really isn't a pill, you know.

And again, that's how people get missed.

I've seen, you know, women you know five 220 pounds have more sapne than I do.

15:23

Yes, no I tell people I put CPAP on an eight month old.

You know, and like it, we're Staffing.

And I did at eight months old.

You know?

So it doesn't really, it doesn't really matter.

Yeah.

I'm not think there's a big misconception out there.

So tell me more about like, what is the actual room look, like when you're having a sleep study?

15:43

So look, kind of like a hotel room or does it look more like a hospital room or walk?

Well, we just do.

It depends on the facility to be honest with you.

So, where I was at, they were designed more quotes told you.

So it really, really nice comfortable beds and TVs in Ariel carpet, nice, nice, armoires, and cabinets next to it.

16:02

That all of our stuff in there, but you would never know until you open it up, but, you know, bathrooms inside of the inside of the rooms, but no, like they were really, really nice.

Not there were some, I've heard some horror stories about, you know, how about look like a hospital bed hospital room?

16:17

Kind of, do the sleep study.

This is kind of like well what am I supposed to do here?

Yeah, but no, we wanted to make it as comfortable as possible, like even the walls were painted like a nice like warm soothing color.

You know, stuff like that.

So I can look at the science behind that.

But yeah, they're really really nice and so for people, I their, can you explain a little bit about the difference between a home sleep test and actually, having the full toy sonogram in a sleep lab or clinic or whatever?

16:47

You're calling it?

Yeah, because I know like I've kind of talked to doctors where they're talking about and whether it rules in or out, sleep apnea.

So sometimes Will can test - on a home test, but then they have like the full test in a clinic and then it shows up that they do actually have sleep apnea.

17:08

So can you explain a little bit about that?

Yeah.

So this this will kind of go into like my initial issue number form, suit testing, and different variables, and stuff like that.

Anyway, so in lab sleep, test is by far the most accurate way to test for sleep apnea and other sleep, right?

17:26

But now, You know, we've kind of transitioned over to the, in this home, sleep study space, where, you know, a lot of commercial insurances are requiring home sleep studies, first because they are cheaper.

And there's a good, there's a place for them, you know, this is diagnostic data, no?

Yeah, they're all.

17:43

So I think there's this thing where insurance companies, if you've already been diagnosed, like, I've had several sleep studies since I was initially diagnosed.

Like when I've, you know, gotten a new machine or whatever it is and I feel Those were home task because they're kind of like we already know you have.

18:01

But yeah.

So they just kind of want to confirm it and then give you a new machine kind of thing.

Yeah.

So like I said this other there's a, there's a space for them and then there's a, you know, there's a there's a reason we can use them but when it comes to the in lab sleep studies, while you have trained professionals that are sitting there like looking at your data that that are trained to know what they're looking for.

18:22

You know, there are trained to know again like what state of student.

If you're awake, all these different having a happening event and they're trying to score those evenings based on certain parameters.

And so with the home sleep studies know they have these algorithms in there that it doesn't necessarily know when you're sleeping you know?

18:41

Like if it's 2:00 in the morning and you're not moving at all obviously you're in Rim as we must have paralyzing around but then the oxygen sensor that that's also helpful.

But at the same time some people who have like severe severe apnea, their oxygen Don't have time to drop the did and so, you know, oh, well, 98% Brothers whole entire study, but then they're happening.

19:04

Index is like 95?

Yeah, no.

So, the home sleep studies are designed not designed to pick that up.

And so during up in the lab tests, you can actually see when some of the stopping breathing went on.

So that's to me.

I mean there's there's I can probably go I can go on forever about this.

19:21

What I want to board so can I I love it.

19:37

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19:54

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20:31

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20:50

That's Viva s.com, / patients, In some instances, there are certain comorbidity comorbidities that you can have that can get you an in lab studies right away.

21:13

So like in a morbid obesity congestive heart failure, COPD different things like that, you still do a pre-authorization, we get the make the case as to why you want them to get in the lab.

It most likely if you make a good case though they'll say okay fine doing in lab sleep, study it.

21:30

So here's what I really want to know and oftentimes my questions are because I personally want to know things.

Yeah so here's what happened to me like so I had I actually had a full polysomnogram but in my own home where the sleet Tech came to my house and like put all the electrodes in the goop and everything and wired me a lot and then there was a webcam like a laptop with a webcam and some sleep Tech in Texas watching me sleep.

22:05

Keep you ever heard a lot?

Just let us here.

Wow, really important?

This was in 2008.

So I'm not sure if things have maybe changed, but they basically said the insurance company.

It was a whole thing.

My doctor was like like I'd falling asleep at the wheel.

22:20

So my doctor was like she's asleep study.

And and so the insurance company said, we have this new thing where we're sending sleep text to people's homes, to do this whole thing and I didn't know that.

That was unusual.

Until I've told a bunch of people since then on there, just like you did what and real like, what?

22:42

I know, so that and then since then I've had several home sleep test, right?

So I never had this thing of having a titrating sleep study.

So, I talked to lots of people where the beaver either had a separate sleep study or the initial sleep study.

23:02

They've woken up with like asleep, Tech person.

Putting a mask on their face.

So can you talk to us a little bit about titrating studying and why that's necessary and how you would get that?

Yeah, so so usually, if someone, if you're coming in for in lab sleep, study in your in your doing what's called Baseline, sleep sighs.

23:22

That's just the initial study to prove.

He wasn't much going on.

Yeah, and let's say, you know, any cheese facilities differently, Stocker missions, different and so they have these parameters where okay, you know, If, if at a certain point in the night will halfway through the night, if they have an apnea index of more than 20 times an hour, and we're going to do is call the split night, sleep studies, then you would go in.

23:46

You would put CPAP mask on them and then, you know what a machine, and then titrate them for the second half of the night.

So that means you have the mask on their face and the Sleep Tech.

Can can adjust the pressure to see what the correct pressure for that person is correction.

24:04

So Oh, then we have the software on our screens and we can, we can actually to titrate, you know, on the on our computer screen, the machine and we can actually raise the pressure based on you know, how many happens that you're having and so initial.

So what we do is when a patient will come in for the sleep, study will be paid for and all that stuff.

24:21

And then we would do is called a mask putting with them.

So so if we will put the mask on them, instead of on the side of the bed, while they're away, put the mask on, turn the air on, and then say, and just breathe with this.

And then we try like three or four different masks.

Then we say okay, which One, would you think you did a different mask during the night or you do the same for the strength before I study?

24:41

Got it?

Got it was so I always tell them.

So no like this is to kind of determine which Mass you think you'd be most comfortable with.

If I had to come in and put in put the master we would you know educated?

They know ahead of time.

Yes I may come in depending on how bad it is.

I'm Mika men have a good night this morning.

24:56

So pick out which Mass you know, you think would be most comfortable.

You're not tied to that one, but that's just one that's like that.

I feel like that's not Not happening enough.

Yeah.

So I've heard I've heard a lot of patients.

They all didn't do that with me, but out where I was, it was, it was, it was a requirement.

25:13

So yeah, so halfway through the night about 2:00 in the morning, oh, they're at me in the next meet the criteria so we go in, wake them up and say, hey, we're going to put the mask on you, let him go to the bathroom that they needed to first.

And then we, then we get him started in a lot of times in a lot of patients.

25:29

Woke up the next morning feeling so much better because that second half of the night is the best night of sleep that they've had.

In years because they got some oxygen.

Yeah, you know, some people didn't feel a difference at first but once they had a no on the machine consistently at home, then it was a lot to experience a lot better and no wires.

25:47

No people looking at your in your, oh yeah, Bayern meant.

So, all those different things kind of play a factor in a festival CPAP Ventures.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Thank you for explaining that because I think I feel like I've heard so many.

Of course, people are always desperate to tell me stories about things when they Don't go well.

26:05

So it's nice to hear that you're spending time to educate people you know but these are the different Mass choices and and all that because I mean I've heard stories of people waking up with a with a sweet Tech putting a mask on their face and they don't know what's going on.

26:22

Really, I'll tell you this, though.

So there's a few times where someone someone was in such a deep sleep.

When I went in there to put the mask on them, for the second half of the night, they didn't wake up and so on to like lift your head up, put the mask on.

Just get them going and when they wake up, like, whoa, what happened to my God?

26:39

Yeah, you're out of there.

So I just did what I had to do it.

Yeah, yeah.

So tell me about.

So you said, when when you got diagnosed with sleep apnea.

So so your wife recorded you, and then so you were currently working like as a sleep tack, right?

27:00

When that happened.

So you kind of new thing or two about it?

Oh, I knew I was in denial.

I'll okay, smile is such a huge part of sleep apnea.

Am I right that again?

Denial seems to be a huge part of sleep apnea.

Oh yeah.

I like, I feel like the number of times, I hear people say things like, well, I'm just they don't go for the sleep study to see how severe their sleep apnea is.

27:26

They kind of know they have it but they'll be like, well, I'm just going to lose weight or do something like even though, you know, it.

Pressing concern, you know, it's a health condition, they have to like treat now, you know?

And but yeah, denials a huge thing.

27:44

So what were your denied like?

I'm a feelings person.

So I want to know about it.

So what were your denial feelings were?

They like, I'm too young for this and this is something other people have.

I'm to fit.

Yep, I'd do.

I don't need Criterion.

Like I don't fit the bill for it.

28:00

Yeah.

Right.

Because that's how they trained you do.

This is what we look for.

Yes.

I didn't need that.

I don't want to wear a CPAP mask, but obviously, I'm seeing what people look like when they're doing this.

I don't want to be that, you know, it and then just just being hard as being stubborn, stubborn as being stubborn male and I feel like overall, like, you know, just just knowing in my role as a wife.

28:27

Yeah, you know, men are just I feel like my husband has no interest in going to the doctor like you.

I have to, you know, kind of like make the appointment and she I'm upset.

So I feel like, you know, that's a pretty common thing to just that men are like, it is time for this.

28:44

It is.

But I will say like, I'm, I am now I'm very in tune with my health.

Like I don't mess around with that.

Yeah.

At the time I got me.

I was almost 26 years old now so I was young, you know, I'm just like I don't want to deal with this, you know?

But again I guess I kind of keep myself in my butt like, hey like who you want to end up?

29:01

You know, like, you know, I'm not joking.

I like your dad.

I want to be availability is really important.

Yeah.

So did you go and have a sleep study where you worked?

Yeah.

Yeah, I did.

I did.

29:16

Yep.

They tell what's that?

Like, did you get those shoes who got some like, observe, you?

Oh, yeah, man, we have our favorite co-workers and stuff like that.

And you know what?

When you work with enough, give you work, there is remove these people, you know, three or four nights a week for 12 or 13 hours.

29:33

You know what I mean is, sometimes we get closer.

Then we'll not with our with our own families and so, you know, you know who does good stuff on who doesn't, you know?

And so yeah, you know, so I went in, I like that one.

This person, do my sleep study, I want them to set me up and yeah, like I went there and I got it done.

29:51

Nice to be on the other side of it as a patient, I found myself nervous.

I'm the one that I don't, that doesn't look it up and I found myself nervous like this is what it's like, but it was nice.

Being on the other side and being able to experience that as a A patient having first-hand experience of what they're going through.

30:09

Yes, that chair, getting all that stuff, put on and stuff like that.

Yeah, I bet it made you a better sleep sack as well just to tell you know, it from the other side.

And so then, so tell me about like after that.

So did you already have ideas about what kind of did they put you straight on to CPAP?

30:28

Did they offer you anything else?

No, because my apnea index wasn't well at that night of the study.

My apnea index didn't meet criteria to get to get the mask on for the second half of the night.

Okay?

So I think I stopped breathing 14 and a half times an hour.

I think they're going to get there was like 25 or 30.

30:45

Yeah and so after that you know I got it has set up an appointment to go to a durable medical equipment company, which they had their own anyway in the hospital system.

So I went there and fill the doctor just straight away.

Prescribed you see Pat?

31:01

I mean, you're in a position where, you know, all about that, right?

So so that was there a discussion about other options oral appliances or anything different like that or was it just, you know?

I had a lot of experience with the oral Appliance and so I mean would that happen and it's a 14.5?

31:19

I probably would have helped me.

But we did a lot of sleep studies with people don't want Appliance.

And the number one complaint was job pain because this thing is extending their jaw out, you know?

And so that was one of the number one complaints.

Like why don't one job they don't want that.

And so like I obviously the CPAP, you know, I try to instill a love hate relationship.

31:38

Always tell people like, I love what it does for me, mentally and physically, but I hate this That I have to wear it, but I'll I mean, I'll never go without it like it is never change the game to do anyway.

But yeah, so that's what happened.

Like I said, I want to add any company durable, medical equipment place and it set me up with it educated me on how to maintain it with already knew all that stuff.

31:58

So I'm just happy.

Yeah and so yeah and then I don't know it's far as like did they give you choices of different masks or yeah.

Cool.

Yeah I'm a full face.

I have, I'm a mouth breather.

So I tried to make them close.

My mouth.

Get coming open.

32:14

I kept the elbow in the ribs, you know, why a close your mouth?

Yeah, that's good.

But I mean, the main thing is just find a mat, a mass that you're comfortable to sleep in and you're managing to use the CPAP all the time, which is great.

And so, do you think, were you one of those people that had the first night and then woke up the next day?

32:30

Feeling like amazing.

Oh yeah, I felt great.

I did Katie.

But, you know, I did.

Like I felt really good and I knew that Yeah.

And so I pretty much always fully mother nature in thinking that this is the way I was supposed to be doing and yeah, I like no.

32:53

But no, I did, I felt a huge difference and I was so glad because I heard everybody else.

Oh yeah.

I feel great.

I did.

And so when I experienced that it was like a night and day experience.

Oh my gosh.

I was I was fun, you know.

And yeah, yeah, you're like, I'm really fun.

33:10

What did you what did your wife say about you?

Angle see that.

Oh, she loved it because it was, it was quiet.

Now in the bed.

Yeah, she was starring snoring like my attitude, my attitude was a lot better.

I was more like mentally available, you know.

33:29

You know, I kind of experience some absenteeism a little bit where, you know, like I was there but I really wasn't.

Yeah, we want to be involved in anything.

I just wanted the most wanted to just to lay down and just I think I fell comment and I think that people Well, don't talk enough about the impact of untreated sleep apnea, or on your just the quality of your life, you know, I'll me a bit about, because you were working a night shift.

33:58

Yeah.

She were so high, did that whole thing affect your sleep, it affected in a lot.

Because if you think about it as a third shifter, you know, when you go, when you go, when you go home with the mornings and we'll go, we call that recovers.

But you're not really, you're not really getting that that you're not making that up.

34:16

So you're building up a lot of sleep debt.

Yeah.

So if you think about the time that I get up to get ready for work to go in for night shift and then by the time I get off and go home, you've been up for a total of like 14 15 hours sometimes longer than yeah.

Right.

And so then you sleep for maybe five or six and then you're back up and doing the same thing again, right?

34:36

So, so, so, in two days and two nights, that's 30 hours, versus the 12 hours that That you will sleep at doing it.

Maybe, you know, and so it's all in for nine and a half years, building up, building up, building up all that sleep in and it just I mean it took me at least a good two and a half years to re-calibrate my circadian rhythm to get in sync with the daytime, you know, environment and function.

35:01

Yeah.

And somehow I still have some issues sometimes where I was going to wake up at 2:00 in the morning of eyes.

Like hey like let's let's let's be able to do it.

Do you think I try anything?

So, but for the most part, I'm gonna did spot.

35:17

Tell me about how you got into the Sleep coaching thing.

Oh yeah.

So so once I stop at stop, so my the first I've been in Singapore, teen years now, and so the first half of my career was on the neurological side of it.

And then the second half was on the point of pulmonary side, which is more respiratory phone, and then I moved off of that kind of working days.

35:38

I ran the sleep medicine part of the practice for a pulmonologist.

And so I was going to hell.

Me give you on CPAP some doing in education, training, helping them get their sleep schedules put together.

And so one day a gentleman says well hey man, you deliver information.

Well should do this for a living and I said I do do it for a living and he goes uh no no I mean like when a business like entrepreneur level.

35:58

Yeah.

Scared the hell out of me because I never thought of doing anything like that.

Yeah, so I started doing some research asking questions, you know talking to people who are business owners and then in 2019 on July of nineteen, I launched circadian Health Systems LLC I do business as circadian health and performance and what I do is I help people understand how and why sleep directly impacts their athletic, mental, physical, personal, performance, recovery, all of that, and I do that through what I call targeted, you know, sleep coaching.

36:31

So it's customized and it's tailored specifically to them.

And then I'll hold your hand throughout the entire process.

Yeah.

And then I'll also screen for sleep apnea as well.

Like I said like I gave patients that were sleeping the scale, you know, just like It's a kindness to kind of see what I want to know what we're dealing with.

And there's so much there's data that has come out about the F-word sleeping, this color.

36:49

So it doesn't really work.

It's not a good tool to use.

I'd leave you think I do.

I think it's still a good tool used, but it's just a formality because it just gives us a kind of a kind of a sense of what we're looking at.

Now, with that being said, I've seen more people had, and that was for one, and had severe sleep apnea that I've seen, where people had a necklace for of no fear Dean and did in didn't have anything, right?

37:15

You know, but it's still a for me, I think it's still a good tool to use it to kind of steal it.

Okay.

So I think I kind of, you know, like I'm not totally disagreeing with you, right?

Because I think there's good things about it, but I think that the problem comes like, I think probably the way that you're dealing with the airport score is part of an ongoing conversation with clients, right?

37:40

So they're kind of able to elaborate With you like this is how I feel and whatever.

I think the problem comes when you're in like this really big practice where you get 10 minutes with the doctor and they briefly kind of glance at Europe for a thing and kind of go, oh, you're pretty sleepy.

37:59

Okay?

And, you know, but they're not asking more questions about that.

So I think but just, you know, it just depends how you use it.

I guess is my thing and really we focus on symptoms, you know?

Ever use the F-word scale but really what?

38:15

We're worried about how you feel like your symptoms.

Yeah.

Oh hey, you know what?

My husband, my wife raised here.

Yeah, like, yeah, but the snoring witness audible snoring.

What is happening?

Is this, you know, I had diabetes hypertension, you know, falling asleep at the wheel and unrefreshing sleep in in or headaches like we're looking for listening and looking at all of that.

38:35

It is well, you know, on top of this kind of getting an idea of what we're dealing with.

So yeah.

So I mean from For me, I always tell people focus on the symptoms like felt like listen to your patients that there.

They'll tell you what I say, tell you what, you need to know, you know, a little freshly when it comes to, you know, people who like were talking about don't necessarily fit a lot of the risk factors for sleep apnea.

39:00

Yeah.

I'm not saying that risk factors aren't helpful because no doubt there's a lot of people in those groups who have sleep apnea but I think there's so many people who are being missed.

The are really like sleeping during the day and do you have a lot of the symptoms?

39:18

They find my way everyone that I come across the business if I had my way.

Yeah everyone because I always told people I would rather you tell me I Told You So and that that I don't have it and yeah we have this ongoing issues and then like these different treatments are a medication for therapies that you're that you're engaging in aren't working because your body because your body is resistant to it because you're not Yeah, yeah.

39:44

Also, it's just one of those things.

Well, I mean, if we could just put you in charge of all of it, I think it would be going a lot better.

It's been so nice to talk to you.

The last thing I always ask anybody who has sleep apnea themselves have there.

Been any good things to come from your diagnosed with sleep apnea and he Silver.

40:02

Linings I guess I would say just just the way that I function and operate with my family because like I said before, you know, it was kind of causing causing some tension at home because I was just I was just real short with everyone and just my attitude again.

40:21

Like I just wasn't at the wasn't mentally and physically available and that's an issue.

You know what I mean?

And so like, you know, my wife is kind of no, kind of man, the helm for everything, you know, and I ended their that it wasn't right, but little did I know?

No, at the time that that hasn't been going on.

40:36

That was causing.

Yeah.

And so it took her to, it took her to really it's occur.

It took, you know, kind of talk with my mom about my bed.

Her recording me working in the field and all that kind of came together, just like hey like get this taken care of.

40:53

So when I fell glad you did.

Yeah.

Me too.

I'll be at my in always tell people no matter what you do or where you go in life, you have to take her body with, you know, so you have to take care of it.

And so I kind of best Angela.

Yeah.

Well, wasn't thank you so much for joining me.

41:08

Where can people find you?

I gotta website www.africanelements.org.

All right, I can put a link in the show notes but yeah.

Yeah, please please take it.

Take a look, you can sign up as a member.

It alerts me.

You can contact me.

41:24

Comes to my email.

Usually say, give me about 14 to 48 hours.

I'll get back to you.

You know that we can have the discussion.

I love it.

Thank you so much for your time.

Yeah, thank you.

Thanks.

Emma.


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