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Episode 79 - Olivia Arezzolo - "Bear, Lion or Wolf" - Sleep Chronotypes


Hey, it’s Emma Cooksey here and I'm your host.

So I just want to say a really big, thank you to those of you who reached out by email or on Instagram to ask, how me and my family were doing because we're in Florida and we just had a big storm here.

And so we were really fortunate, we're Northeast Florida.


And we really escaped the worst of the storm and a lot of people in South Florida, special, To the West were not as lucky as us, but, and yeah, we had a lot of rain and wind, and our dog was quite scared.


My kids were off school for three days, so it was just a lot of togetherness, really was the storm, but we were super fortunate that we didn't lose power.

And so, all in all, can't complain a quick shout out as well to everybody on my email list and I sent I Draft and last week where I'm talking about trying to put together, some sort of tool kit to help people who are new to CPAP, was some of the pointers that I would go back and give myself when I started CPAP with what I know now.


And I asked for input from everybody on my email list and I got some really thoughtful, wonderful responses.

So I feel like I'm kind of co-creating this resource with you guys, which is really nice.

So, if You have any input, you want to share about things that you learn.


And I know that I have a lot of seasoned CPAP users who listen to the show.

So, if you have any wisdom to share, I'd love to hear it.

You can email me at sleep apnea stories at, and I think it's a bigger project that I thought was going to be to begin with, but I think it's going to be really helpful.


So I'm excited about it.

So if you're not on the email list yet and I don't want Bombard you with email, because I'm not organized enough to do that but I send that usually like one email a week or something like that.

So if you want to join you get a free video download and of my suggestions for some top tips for people who have sleep apnea and and you just to sign up for the email list, you just go to sleep apnea,, and it's right there on the first page, you just scroll to the bottom and click for Video and you'll get signed up for the email list.


So, on to today's guest, today, I'm drawing by Olivia arrazolo, and she is an Australian sleep coach, and also the author of a book called bear lion or wolf and so that book has all about Chrono types.


So if you're not familiar with the idea of chronotype sits to do with people who are Early risers or people who like to stay up late at night and like it's the different times of the day that your most productive or you know, when you can get your best sleep.


So I know it's not specific to sleep apnea, but I think that sometimes people with sleep apnea are having issues and with other parts of their sleep that anyone can have right.

So I thought it was really interesting to talk to Olivia About her book and I just really enjoyed getting to meet her.


If you're not already following her on Instagram, I really recommend that I've got a link in the show notes to her Instagram to her book.

You can go and take a quiz to find out which chronotype you are.

And so lots of fun stuff in the show knows.


So without further Ado, here's my conversation with Olivia arrazolo.

So Olivia, thank you so much for joining me.

You For joining me dry, explain to begin with like where you're from originally and where you are right now.

I'd absolutely love to so I am originally from Australia.


I grew up in a country town with 15,000 people and near Melbourne.

Then I lived in Melbourne and then they lived in Sydney for the past 11 years and I am currently in Italy because I've just decided to move over which is very exciting.


Um, I'm enjoying my first dose of living here and in the process of getting my citizenship and yam.

I'm in the south of the south of Italy a place called tropea, which is in Colombia, lovely.


I didn't realize you're removing their like, I thought you were just wanting about Europe on a really long vacation.

Well, yeah, I I didn't realize I was moving here either.

And then I feel like I've wanted to expand Beyond Sydney for quite some time, but I haven't felt the place yet just so I'm half Italian and just being in Italy.


It just feels like I'm coming home and I have the sense of vital in my entire being of just being here and this tells me that this is how I should feel and this is what it be where I should be.

So I'm just trusting that and I'm listening, that's wonderful.


I'm so excited for you last.

Alright was so you're a sweet coach so you help people with their sleep.

So I guess just because my podcast is all about sleep apnea.

I just wanted to hear a little bit about, you know, have you come across some of your clients with sleep apnea, how do you find that it shows up in people?


Like I just fine since I've started my podcast that the stereotypes of sleep apnea are not Orally the people out there that have sleep apnea.

So, not everybody is like an overweight man, right?

So I just wondered if that was your experience when you're coaching people.


But definitely has been my experience to be honest.

So I see both females and males.

Usually there between you know 30 to 50, you know, High performing High a type individuals, like yourself, no doubt.


And yeah, like I've had a handful of client with sleep apnea.

My main focus is, to be honest, more insomnia, but I have had a few Clients.

And they definitely haven't been, you know, the overweight, you know, alcohol, binge drinking males.


Like, I've had females, who have been actually a few of my younger females even in their 20s have been suffering here.

And, you know, that's been not through, you know, behavioral mechanisms but more.

So they're like, actual septum for example, was in one case was deviated.


So She had to be a lot of problems breathing and you know the it was actually more of the nasal cavity and in another one as well.

So my so there's so many people like they're nice.

They're dealing with that.

I think like that that comes up a lot.


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I feel like a lot of people were really embarrassed about it and they know that I want to share it because because of that, it's like, you know, because people think all, you know, your will.

What's wrong with you all?

Like maybe it's you know you're doing maybe you need to, you know, drink less or, you know, lay a different position on your in when you in your sleep or not, which those things are valid.


Yes, but it doesn't take away that some people just are Logically in position where they suffer from this condition.

Yeah, I'm wondering, is that, is that resonate with you?

Yeah, absolutely.


And I just find a lot of people have a certain idea of sleep apnea, and who has it.

And so especially women, especially young women, we often don't think of sleep apnea as being like, you know, that could be the underlying cause to Oliver, you know issues.


And certainly that was the case with me.

I went the whole of my twenties without a diagnosis and it was only like when I turned 30 and I fell asleep at the wheel, I really like started, asking questions in my sleep and got my diagnosis but yeah, I think that's super common.


Just that people think well that's something that, you know, like they're Granddad has so it can't affect them.

But I think more and more we're seeing people with light, you said their deviated septums or huge tonsils.

And, you know, He just have really small compromise their ways.


So yeah, there's a lot of a bag.

So, and with your, so I read your book, I loved your back and so I wanted just to maybe ask you to talk a little bit.

Sometimes people with sleep apnea.

Well thank that every single thing to do with their sleep is because of their sleep apnea.


Even though, you know, maybe we've had that treated.

So I think sometimes people don't look at it like off.

Oftentimes people can have co-occurring insomnia or they can have other issues with their sleep.

But one thing I've never talked about on the podcast is this idea of Chrono types.


And so I just wonder if you can just explain for people that have never heard of that there aren't familiar.

Could you explain a bit about that?

I would be more than honored to share the insights on prototypes given that is my books concept.


So bear lion wolf.

So but before I do that, I just wanted to I guess I agree with you that that, you know, sleep apnea is one thing, but that doesn't mean that can't be challenged by the problems that everyone else is challenged by, for example, not know, not have it, not having the right bedtime routine or not having the right supplements or, you know, having having not a proper sleep Sanctuary.


Like, just because you have sleep apnea are if you have all of these factors, Act against you.

It can make the situation so much worse.

And, similarly, you know, if you're using wrong strategies for your chronotype, that can be equally as problematic.


So, with regards to Crow types, for anyone who is new to the concept.

I'll make it super simple and super easy to understand.

All it is, is that you have a biological preference as indicated by yourself.


Acadian preference if Acadian Rhythm to rise and sleep at a particular time.

Now this is either classified into three groups which is an early riser and early to bed.

That's someone who's a lion and that's me.


So yeah, love to get up super early like 6:00 could time.

Love to go to bed.

Super early like 10 p.m. or so 10th and 30.

Great time to go to bed.

Then you've got those in the other end of this.

Spectrum who are cold wolves now.


They love to get up around 8:00 in the morning, but really not earlier and they like to put a bed around 12 or even 1:00 sometimes.

So they're the ones that they seem to thrive the later the day gets and then you've got the Bears who are falling right in the middle of those two and they like to get up around about 7 and go to bed around about 11.


Now, there is much more to the concept of prototypes and like, for example, there are certain prototypes.

So there are certain personality traits that are correlated with each prototype.

For example, lions are more leadership types.


Whereas bears are more team players, whereas wolves are more known for their originality and a bit of the left of center.

I know individuals that we know.

So it's really in yet, it's really a kind of a really interesting but generally but like there's a lot of things in there that I hadn't even thought of like one of the things that you're talking about is like certain times to have sex like that's kind of something that I really know is I was like, oh and you're suggesting like, certain people might want to have sex in the morning versus at night.


Night time, which was kind of interesting definitely yeah yeah yeah well the thing is that we all love to have sex like Anthony wrongs and the thing is that if we align it with when our energy is the highest, then we have the greatest chance of orgasming.


So for example, if Lions do it, it's lines.

If Lions have sex in the morning, they have the greatest chances orgasming compared to if wolves, they do it in the evening.

But the thing is that Actually use at use for different reasons.


Like, for example, yes, having an orgasm could be one, you know, objective.

But also to help us relax could be another, you know, objective as well and you know, just no bonding with your partner and you know, seeing when they when it, when it when they're most up for it, which actually if you if you test out to see their chronotype and I brought a crow type quiz on my website for anyone who That's it, it might be interesting to find out there grow, no tight, because you might know that I do.


That makes sense, because they're always, you're up for it, in the evening.

But because they're a wolf.

Whereas, you know, like the other person might be a lion and then they're always up for the morning.

But the wolf is like, no, no.

I just want to sleep or what?

Yeah, that's definitely part of it is just a sign from the sex thing.


It's like when you're in a relationship with somebody, if you have a very different chronotype, And you know makes for I think of you understand that that can really help in a relationship because you know that the person is not going to be their best first thing in the morning.


So you just wouldn't be all in their face.

Trying to talk.

Exactly right and that's it.


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That's another reason I love furnish hops because, you know, it helps us understand our own selves better but also helps us understand those that we love you know.

Exactly if you just said you know if you if you're a morning type you're lying but your partner is a wall then suggestions of him.


Hey let's get up and go for like a really beautiful morning.

Walk at 6:00 in the morning that is like that is like as painful as it as it is for Early riser for the wolf to say, hey, you know what?

Let's go for a nice long walk at like 10:00 p.m. or 11 p.m. in the evening.


The lion is going to be like the early risers 3.

Like that sounds like the worst idea ever, ever.

I just want to be in bed, right?

Yeah, for sure.

What, what's your credit at MIT?

Well, when I was reading it, I was swinging, I think I'm a lion but like I just I think partly the sleep apnea thing.


I definitely.

We need a lot of sleep.

So I think I feel like I'm probably best first thing in the morning and then last thing, you know, like all definitely start winding down for bed and I have to tell my children that they can just pause and come back and tell me the rest of what they want to tell me in the morning because I feel like late in the evening.


I just kind of don't have any capacity left.

My brain is just like, no, it's time for bed.

That's it?

Where's my husband?


So my husband is up really late at night and not interested in you know the crack of dawn kind of thing.

So it's quite interesting.


Yeah, somebody that's quite different.

So tell me have you discovered the whole sleep thing and how do you like we really got got involved and decided you wanted to learn more about and help other people with it.


Yeah, so I think I feel like sleep found me.

Um, so I so I had mental health challenges when I was in my teens and right throughout my 20s and you know, I still still to this day as a journey.


It's inevitable danger.


And I hear that, right.

So, like my my weapons of choice have been anxiety.

Depression, anorexia.


And you know, I went through, so everybody listening to this has anxiety and depression.


Just so, you know, but it's so, common was like that.

Me and especially people who have gone undiagnosed for a really long time.

Like, I feel like so many of us kind of went down, the, you know, anxiety and depression, kind of root.


And then we discovered, we also had sleep apnea.

So, yeah, so I feel you totally on the same page.


Well, I'm glad that.

Yeah, I'm glad that we are on the same page, like sometimes when you have anxiety or depression, you feel like everyone else is just sailing along.


So, yeah, I know.

And you're the only one, it's like that.

And nobody else has these thoughts in your, in their heads, where, you know, that everything is miserable and you know, you just can't be bothered at all or yeah.

You know you're so anxious that you know you can't string a sentence together.


Another I have these around you and just looks so relaxed in your just, they're just trying to just trying to try to make it right.

Ankle one, right, I get it together when I was in my teens and it was really, really to be a, you know, I tried to take my life at the age of 14 and then I was posted, there was this really bad and then I was hospitalized anorexia at for six weeks is an impatient than three months.


Now, patient when I was 17 and so Like these ones really dicey but particularly through that three-month outpatient period recovering from anorexia, it was very transformational.


And I really move from this place.

It's where I was you know, just I just I was I was spiraling down but then my coaches and my healers and my therapists, they got me the spiral up and I moved from, you know, not wanting to This to having the most full Rich abundant Beautiful Lie in a really short space for the time.


And I just knew from that day I was like, this is the I need to help people like this.

Yeah, I need to help people borrow from their Darkness to their light.

Like, that is what I am here to do.

And sometimes I think, I don't know if you can relate to this, but I think sometimes people because someone listen to this might think we'll, why wouldn't you help people with anorexia?


But I feel as though sometimes your own Own challenge.

Like these things are lifelong sometimes, right?

So in some ways, it might be too close to your own experience.

No, I definitely because I, you know, I'm still, I'm still trout.


I'm still struggling with it, not I wouldn't say I'm struggling with it now, but I'm still on a journey where, you know, I don't feel like I'm the best person to to share with.



Hey this is how you 100% recover from Barracks.

Yeah, because I don't feel like I'm 100 years others.

Yeah, I'm getting there.

I'm definitely on my journey.

Which yeah, but right, thank also mental health things.

I mean, I know with my journey with anxiety and depression, like my life looks so much better than I than it did years ago.


But at the same time I think that it's just always going to be kind of one of those things that just have seasons and you just Learn coping, you know, with it and you learn ways to deal and and it's much better and your quality of life is better.


But yeah I'm just not sure that there's an end point where you say I'm all done.


Which right.


And that's yeah I feel like that.

That's definitely the case you know we mental health and even sleep challenges, you know, because you know, we need to make these daily choices which how we're going to think how we're going to act.


What proactive measures are going to take to improve these measures?

You know, be at anxiety, depression, sleep apnea, anorexia us.

And what are we going to allow in our in our space?

So it needs to be a daily choice and fear daily decision.


And although I guess I feel like everyone and because of that, I guess you never like 100% univer covered ever from anything because it's, it's always a journey.

Yeah, but I think it, why haven't I Eight people in the past, like, three more like eating stuff.


I think, to be honest, he probably has just been a bit too close to me like.

Yeah, it's just it's throughout my journey.

I knew I wanted to help people but it was just the concept of moving from a dark place to right place that right?

That was the intention.



And so I thought, okay, great, well, I want to help them body mind soul everything.

I need lots of study, so I studied a bachelor of social science psychology, and - sleep psychology and the Department of Health Sciences, usual medicine.

And they still get trained for and fitness.


Because I always knew that, however, I wanted to help I wanted to be holistic and I wanted to know, and understand the whole body nutrition.

It not exactly.

It's like, yeah.

So I spend doing coaching in various areas, you know, some weight loss stress, some motivation, and I had some sleep clients and they had really good results really fast and So how did you talk to other people about it?


And every second person who I mentioned this to was like, oh my God, I'm struggling, they sleep help me.

Yeah, they helped me and I was like, I was like, whoa, sleeping thing.

Wow, it's a huge thing.

Like it's astonishing.

It's like, you know, I feel as though for some reason in the way that Society is right now it seems more normal to be complaining that you're tired.


The not like I feel like most people are like, I'm so tired.

Yeah, I'm really exhausted and everybody's just like comparing and I'm just like, that's not normal.

No, right, right?

Like, yeah, it's a 100%, a gray.


Like, I feel like anyone listening to this needs to ask, like, whoever needs to do a little survey or whoever they can find around them.

Like who feels tired right now?


And and or who feels like they had enough sleep last night.


So I guess people listening are going to ask like what do you what did you do to get such great results?


Like because everybody's going to want to do all the stuff that's of course, you know, it's a combination of my of my background so I integrate psychology, sleep, psychology nutrition and fitness and I create science-based, step-by-step strategies.


And when I work with my clients, Sponge one.

I don't just give them a plan and then.

Okay, that's your one session.

See you?

See you in six months I'll check up on you.


Like what I like to do is work with them over a period of time.

See, maybe it's six weeks, maybe it's three months, maybe it's six months.


But I like to have, you know, regular contact with them.

So they've got strategy and support.

Yeah, I think it supports huge when you're doing something different and you're trying to change what your routine.

Is right?

It is because the thing is, if we all, if all we needed was information, that then we would have all of our problems solved because great, we're in the most information Rich place we ever been, you know, you can type anything into Google and within 30 years, you've got three thousand volts of how do you know, make things better?


So it's not about just having the strategies.

It's about knowing that somebody's got your back and that if you have a problem, That you can go to them and say all, you know what, like, my bedtime routine.

It was, I was out last night, I got home, I didn't know if I should do it or not because it was late.


And what should I do?

Or having that support person?


They're just like, it's all right.

Just, you know, do XYZ out.

It's okay.


And I think he's right, I saw a bit of the accountability part of it, too, because I just am was doing some breath work with a breath work coach.


And there was no way that she was a really nice woman that That was helping me but I think like there is an element where if someone's going to be checking up on you, you want to like, do the things.

They told you to do so that you can say.

Yeah, you know, whereas if it's just you and find something on Google, you're just like, not really, is accountable.


Exactly, right.

I was actually, one of my favorite studies around accountability, was by the American Academy of training and development, and they found that If you have a partner, so if your chances of achieving a goal, if you write it down, our 10% greater, and then, if you don't, just write it down because just writing it down, you get you get 10, you get plus 10%, right?


If you have a partner who you share your goal with, You have a 65 percent greater chance of achieving that goal.

And if you have a scheduled check-in with that partner, let's just say it's a coach then you are ninety percent more likely to achieve that goal.


Yeah, that's that's a big difference.

So, this is, yeah, this is not surprising because, you know, think about it, like a personal trainer.

For example, everyone knows how to go for a run or how to go to the gym.


Like it's not rocket science.

Like Right.

You know, like that you'd have to get somebody.

Very okay.

Maybe there's maybe there's a handful people who haven't been to the gym ever, but I'd say 90 99 % of population, understands, you know, yes, treadmill this way.


It's, you know, it's pretty basic /.

Wider personal trainers, get good results, not because the person doesn't know what to do, they just need somebody barking at them when they're trying to do it, it's true.

And so one of the things I wanted to ask you about was and there's all Sorts of research about light and sleep and Sleep Quality.


So I wanted to be.

Could maybe just tell everybody a little bit about this concept of getting bright light outside in the morning and maybe also tells I think you were wearing some groovy light-blocking glasses.

So maybe tell us about that.

So absolutely.



I was like this actually I was going to exactly say you know when you asked me one of my strategies I don't like Leaving it so vague.

So I will actually have like, you know, coming to implement.

And this is a beautiful question because the best thing that I can recommend for anyone improved wanting to improve their sleepy.


It having sleep out there or not is to control light.

So why does light have such an importance for our sleep?

So it is the biggest factor to control our circadian rhythm.

Our circadian rhythm controls the production.


Uh, ction of sleep promoting hormones, like melatonin, so out of it.

So it has more of an impact than diet supplements, you know, like all of these things that we think are more important than owning a light is.


Number one, that is our biology.

This is how we are designed as humans because thousands and thousands of years ago when we didn't have white, all we knew is when it's dark, we should Asleep.

And when it's bright, we should be a reason we alert and that that is that is in Christ into our biology and reflectively when we are exposed to Blue Light which is specific spectrum of life, that our that are that controls.


These sleeper require moans when you're exposed to Blue B, which stems from your device's, your ceiling lights, your TV's, your laptop's everything.

This suppresses, melatonin that sleeping in this hormone.

As a result, you do not feel tired, which is exactly why we're having such sleep problems because 95% of people are on their phones just until the moment, they fall asleep.


It takes a long time to the things, especially when it's information that goes against what we actually enjoy array.

Like people, people like watching TV, You don't want to think that's bad, right?

Like you want to think?

No, no, no, no, it's the diet or, you know, know it's yeah, just stressed.


Not that must mean that I just give me a give me someone supplement to take and I'll be all done and I don't find all my happens.

I don't want to switch off my device.

I like strong Instagram in bed.

Don't tell me, it's bad.

And so there's this, there's this psychological resistance to actually accepting that information and believing.


It is true.

And so, You resist, resist resist but eventually maybe you just need to go and it's like well this is fantastic.

Yeah so I think that has a lot to do with why people are still doing that behavior because it feels good you know, especially like most of us most of us to stress that the day we don't get a chance to just have you know this this sense of like me time.


And so a lot of my clients especially when you're a parent you know a moment to yourself and like yeah and the TV just seems so easy.

So tell me about you said that there's blue light and overhead lighting.

So what should we be doing?


Like if we're reading or something, what's the best like getting So the best thing I would actually recommend would be looping back to those funky looking glasses that you saw me wearing before.

So put those on because the thing is so they are 100% blue, light blocking glasses.


This is helpful because you might be looking at a screen temporarily or, you know, you might have see us see like a TV in the background.

However, if you have the ability or capacity to 200 screens on inflicting on you.


Then there are blue, light free light Globes which you can get.

As on usually the same websites that have blue lights.

Blocking glasses is definitely one mysterious trillion say Globe instead of bulb Globe, they are Globe.


Oh yeah.

Same thing about.

Yeah, got it.

So you can order like they actually read or they're just like they just say that their light blue light.


There are ones that are red and there is ones that have more of an orange tinge.


Now they some of them protect different levels.

Like, for example, the ones that orange tinge might prevent might protect 100% of blue light, but then maybe only like, 50 percent of green light, which is another another sleep, affecting light spectrum, which I will not get into if this is not a science lesson, right?



It's really interesting though.

Yeah yeah.

So you know actually is it actually is and then you've got your your red light and they usually protect the most, but I do find even in my personal experience there.


It's quite challenging to even read with them.

Oh yeah.

I I go on the side of having the be more orange, orange lights and having the orange glasses, I actually so last year, I read this really cool book and by a woman who is called, quit like a woman.


It's about people that give up drinking or or kind of sober, curious and all that kind of stuff.

And so I read that book and I was like, I realized like I grew up in Scotland, right?

So I never really had a week.


Well, apart from my pregnancies, I'd never really had an extended period of time where I I haven't been drinking alcohol.

So I kind of started out like a more than a year ago thinking like I just wonder how we'll be like, especially with my sleep because I was beginning to find.


As I got older, I'm 45 now and compared with, like, when I was in my 20s that 45, I find that if I have, you know, even one glass of wine, I would wake up at, like, 2:00 in the morning and I don't know if it's just That.


But I definitely want to stop drinking alcohol and notice that my sleep was better and I didn't have as many, you know, wake up during the night.

So I just kind of carried on and I gave up drinking so I just wondered what your take was on alcohol and sleep.


Well done giving up drinking.

I think especially because you are Scottish I know that sleep.

Definitely does improve with and particularly with sleep apnea with with alcohol sobriety because what alcohol does with sleep apnea, is it relaxes the muscles around your neck and around the Airways which means that the Airways are more likely to collapse and so you're more likely to have Both snoring and sleep apnea issues.


That's for those with sleep, apnea are now.

Four people are just in general who don't have sleep apnea alcohol.

What it does is and this is just a general rule alcohol, suppresses REM sleep.


Now REM sleep is that deep sleep stage that we need that helps with emotional regulation and also memory consolidation.

So And this is also this happens in the later part of the night, usually after 3 a.m., so what alcohol does?


Especially because quite a big night, what you'll do is you'll wake up around. 3:00 4:00 5:00 in the morning, because your body cannot actually get into that deeper, REM, sleep at that time, that usually does.


In addition to that alcohol, being a depressant it depresses, the central nervous system in the evening and then when that alcohol wears off you have an exacerbated Spike of it's called The Rebound effects.


So it happens after alcohol is sedating effect of alcohol.

Gone off your central nervous system is trying to rebalance.

Balance itself, but instead of just going back to homeostasis back to its normal, it's almost like a jack-in-the-box.

Like it goes way over the top right and then it needs to settle back down.


And so then it can just settle back down, which is exactly why you often wake throughout the night and you're like sweating or you're like, yeah, your mind is racing or you feel like you got the energy, that thousand suns because your body is just got these charge of energy after being depressed.


Strum that alcohol the night before.



Thank you for explaining all that because there's definitely a lot going on with alcohol and for sure.


So is there anything else that you want to talk about it?

So I know that you have your book that people can get.


I think I got mine on Amazon, but is it available?

Like is the best place your website.

Where can people find you?

I think you see, I definitely can get the book on Amazon, then I feel like that's going to be helpful because I'm sure you have a lot of things smashing.


This is.

Yeah, so Amazon is a good one.

New shipping is easy.

Otherwise you know it's in all its in like retail stores as well, but just depends on your location like a moment.

We're just retailing in the UK and in Australia, but we do have a hug.


Two deals with now 11 countries, which is wow.


Including Italy, which is where I am now, and I'm very, very, very excited to walk past a good to go and see my, are you gonna do?

I think I need to write something fun as long as as long as like, at all of the books, you know, launch dates that there's, you know, it's a nice, big plate of pasta and cheese.


And yeah, then I'm yeah, I'll do I'm sure.

We'll listen.

Let me thank you so much for spending the time to talk to us.

I really appreciate it.

Oh, thank you know, I think it's, it's been beautiful and I just want to loop back.

So outside of my book, which you can find on Amazon, a really good way to connect with me is on Instagram, my favorite social media platform.


Just please don't do it.

Just for bed.

You can find me there.

I'm if you typing sleep expert.

I'm usually one of the first that comes up when I'm alone.

I can link to that in the show notes as well, so people can just just click it.


That'd be awesome.

Alright, well thank you so much for a beautiful conversation.

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