It’s Emma Cooksey here and I'm your host.
So today's episode is my conversation with dr.
Dan Garden Berg.
So he is asleep scientist, which is super interesting.
I love on the podcast when I get to interview people from different perspectives.
So obviously we have a bunch of patients all the time, sharing their stories, and we have a lot of doctors and different, experts, dentists and different people.
But I really like talking to Dan because he has a whole different sort of perspective on this.
Like, he's actually starting to look at how to research into sleep apnea and how we can make sleep apnea treatment better.
So I loved having this kind of like high-level discussion with him and I had to cut out a bunch of me, jumping up and down and being like oh you should Research this, and what about this?
And so, because I know you guys want to hear from him, like, I'm not just me a little bit about Dan, and before we start.
Dan garton Berg, and he's also called dr.
And he's the founder of the Sleep space app, but he's also an adjunct assistant professor at Penn State and he has a PHD in applied psychology.
One of the main things he's looking at and sleep science is the use of saying And light temperature and vibration to enhance sleep during sleep.
So whether like playing certain sounds can help people with the quality of their sleep while they're asleep.
So, it's kind of interesting, and I'm gonna Link in the show notes to his Ted talk, because he did a really great Ted Talk called the brain benefits of deep sleep and how to get more of it.
And that Ted Talk has had more than 5 million views, which is kind of amazing.
So during This discussion, we talked a little bit about the work.
He's done in the past and his sleep space app.
But we also the part that was really interesting to me, was he's looking at new research, he can do into that.
Nia, I love hearing his perspective on what he thinks about, you know, the current treatments for sleep apnea.
And you know what he sees that could improve he just has a really Ali unique Insight.
I think into all of this.
So, without further Ado, here's my conversation with dr.
Dan Garden burger, and Dan.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
Do you want to start by telling people where you are in the world?
Well, I'm ticked typically in Brooklyn New York but actually right now I am visiting family for Passover in Miami.
I'm glad I asked.
So you're in Florida.
If the world I'm in your neck of the woods.
So start out by telling us a little bit what you kind of when we first chatted, you described yourself as a scientist and you so you did a PhD in human factors and applied cognition, And you want to explain to us what that is and like, how you got into this whole sleep thing?
It's basically cognitive psychology or experimental psychology or ass also known as applied psychology, instead of, you know, treating people in like a clinical sense, which is how most people think of us psychologists were, mainly running, experience experiments.
Trying to optimize cognition?
The professor I worked with founded the field.
Of neuro ergonomics which essentially is the study of the brain at work?
His name was rat.
Raja para, sermon.
And I was also working for the Naval Research labs for my PhD under, Greg Crafton, basically, building models of fatigue, using artificial intelligence.
So there's a lot of talk about artificial intelligence right now.
Ya Allah you know chat gbt and whatnot.
So we were so we weren't trying to like optimize the We were actually trying to model human behavior.
So we're trying to make robots like humans and my job was to model the fatigue aspects of human cognition and worked with the Air Force research Labs.
On this Theory, called the micro laps theory of attention, which has to do with basically your process of losing vigilance, when you're doing tasks and house, Sleep impacts that interesting.
So, yeah, that's the Science Background.
I was always making apps trying to optimize sleep.
During this time, I was one of the first apps on the App Store and at a certain point of Professor came up to me about this theory that involved using sounds to stimulate deeper sleep and I started applying for some grants for that because I'm just captivated by this idea of Sing sleep during sleep, which is easy.
What your tacos.
I've kind of tried, I could you not have an app which we'll get to but what you're talking about is falling asleep with sounds that almost like, you know, if you're in deep Sleep, keep you.
There is a my kind of understanding that.
Yeah, so there's a couple of ways that sounds can enhance sleep.
And I'm basically trying to do all of those ways.
So, there's a couple of ways that you can use sound.
And, and I'm trying to figure out all the ways.
And so, there's a couple things that we can do.
Number one is just trying to associate a relaxation sound with the act of falling asleep, right?
So we believe in like having the wind down ritual.
I think about it as you might have heard of stimulus control and cognitive behavioral therapy.
Basically associating your bed with sleep in the main thing.
People say is, you know everyone says this all the doctors save your bed for Insects only.
Yeah, my thing is what's do super stimulus control.
So let's build extra associations with sleeping with the bed and sleeping.
So part of that is sound part of that is light, part of that is possibly temperature in addition, to additional rituals that you can layer on.
So, you know, we have this ritual where I press my, I'm going to bed for my wind down all the The lights turn red to sort of, you know, get you in that mode and the photoreceptors in your eyes and whatnot as well.
And then also we play ocean waves.
And there's something like with make about the ocean waves and actually, I don't know if it's something about nature but the pulse rate of the ocean waves are sort of have some similarities to the delta waves to that in a second that kind of Deep Sleep way.
Yes, that's what happens deep sleep.
Basically, your brain pulsates at one point to hurts around, Which is and so we try to emulate that with the sounds that we play.
So that's, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
So, the first thing is falling asleep and then we think about blacking out noises throughout the night with the sound machine.
So a lot of people use some machines, you know, out of baby, excuse for, for children.
And so, what's unique about, What I've built is that I will use technology various ways to measure your sleep during sleep for the purpose of doing something.
So, I like the Fitbit, the ordering, whoop, all of these devices, it feels it seems like it's at operating in real time.
But the algorithms actually calculate your night of sleep after you've completed the entire night, Right.
Yeah, because basically get better prediction if you have the full night of data.
I want to intervene in order to enhance and in order to do that you can't use the full night of data.
You have to use what you've got in that moment of time.
So we have an algorithm that works every 30 seconds and it'll actually measure certain things down to the millisecond.
So in your phone, right?
There's two main form factors.
It's it'll work with any phone and it'll then in also work even better with an Apple Watch.
Okay, got it.
So, we have a risk based algorithm and then a phone based algorithm.
The phone is measuring sounds and it's also measuring motion.
It's mainly informed by the motion data.
So it's so the motion data is what's telling you whether somebody's in deep sleep or not.
Well, or no.
So it's a little complicated side.
Watch out for everyone to know.
It's sort of important to accurately estimate sleep stages.
You really need heart rate, data mine.
So and even then it's I'm really, you need like a polysomnogram with, all right, we're right?
Yeah, even then it's like an estimate.
So our heart rate, you know, when we use the Apple watch, We're collecting heart, rate data, and I think we actually have the most accurate Apple watch algorithm to Measure the sleep stages and that's but even that you know, will be like ten percent off on the Sleep stage example.
So that helped you're trying to improve people's deep sleep with with noises.
There's not really any downside to that.
It's just that, you know, they'll listen to a different, you know, signed it's not going to like harm them in any way.
So, yeah, well, there is a dance that could be harmful, which is playing a sound.
And that wakes you up got it.
So it's a tightrope walk between getting the brain to respond to the sound and not pushing your brain to the point that you awaken or your partner, wake awakens.
So that is sort of the essence of the difficulty of building this technology, so difficult.
So yeah, yeah.
If they're real time algorithm, you have to Play it in, just the right time and intensity to get the brain to respond, but you don't wake up.
So there's two things during sleep that I'm doing.
Number one is we're playing a sound machine.
We detect if you're awake or asleep and then I'll gradually ramp up the sound machine when you're asleep, actually.
Because your brain has a higher around, it's harder to awake to like arouse you.
If you're in a sleep in it Nurse Consolidated sleep State.
So it's guess that's where we start getting into people with sleep apnea and what I call that is I actually just wrote a grant around some ideas that I can get into, but just to rub that just to wrap this thing up.
So it's a smart sound machine that adjusts.
And then when we get consistent sleep, based on the motion of the phone, we're just sort of estimating to Um degree in the first couple Cycles because that's when you typically are rich and deep sleep or play this pulsating sound and you can hear it in the Ted Talk it's like a whoosh, whoosh whoosh.
Now it's the pulse frequency of the sound that's matching the pulse rate of your Delta brainwaves.
So we're trying to Prime that electrical circuitry.
And it originally started with transcranial direct current stimulation which is essentially zapping the rain at that frequency and there's some devices around that but I'm always like, is there a way to do this without having to wear something?
Because I'm very sensitive to wearing things that yeah I mean I'm already wearing a CPAP so when people are like I'm just put this on I'm like exactly never want to add anything else.
And I think there's something ritualistic about like being like taking everything off when you sleep, you know, it's like You're taking off your burdens for the day sort of an orca way.
So you know, I like to sleep close to naked or naked so I don't like to necessarily what I end up doing it because I'm you know it's my profession to like we're a bunch of gizmos so but usually when I do it it's like okay.
Tonight is my tracking night.
Let's see where I'm at.
Yeah, it's not usually like every night, I'm necessary wearing something and that's why the men In ISM of just using your phone because the phone actually has better sensors.
Then basically anywhere will like the motion sensor in your phone.
Apple makes it this way because they make like games with it, that use the accelerometer and stuff.
So that sensor is actually highly highly accurate.
So we Crank that up and use that to accurately measure the sleep, and you can place the one in bed or, you know, I have this little mechanism that charges it in.
It's in the same place every night in order to accurately play the sounds.
So it's always in the same location every night on your side of the bed.
That's the Sleep space smart bed because I want to play the sounds very precisely and like my wife likes louder sound masking than I do.
I think she is like, harder hearing or, you know, people are different.
There's sleep spindles, as you might know that impact that.
So, yeah, so that's, that's why I invented.
Did the thing.
I mean, I guess I'm just always really interested, like I know a lot of people with sleep apnea, have co-occurring insomnia, but I'm really interested in what you think.
We need to be researching more or what your ideas are too.
Kind of make things better for people with sleep apnea.
So I just wrote a grant on that and I just submitted it yesterday.
So I have a bottoms W so that's a direction.
I've mainly focused on insomnia in the Just so typically what we've done in the past is trip to augment the treatment of insomnia.
What you mentioned there is, I guess you've probably talked to your listeners about comesa.
Well, yeah, I've had a couple of people on and talked about it and talked about, you know, doing cbt-i for the insomnia element and then getting some sort of treatment for the sleep apnea ailment and treating both together.
You think there is a times people are You know, diagnosed with sleep apnea and nobody really questions them about whether they might have insomnia to, and people end up, you know, just treating their sleep apnea, and they still have this insomnia, untreated.
So we've talked a lot about that.
Yeah, and I don't know if you've seen, there's a recently published paper that for folks with comesa treating, their insomnia, actually reduced the number of hypopneas that they had tonight.
And so I think what that points to from a theoretical perspective, is that you know anything that's going to sort of just make you in general healthier and consolidate your sleep exercise you know weight loss got new, behavioral therapy for insomnia.
Potentially especially if you're a certain type of person with sleep apnea because that's the other thing is you know, it's really different like the phenotypes are really different.
And I think this The doctors are don't really even think about this.
And even the scientists are just like sort of scratching the surface on, the type of sleep apnea person.
You are obviously there's you know, severe, severe, moderate mild but even beyond that.
Like to what extent is is a structural issue like to what extent is it the weight loss thing to what extent is it like the breathing exercise?
Thanks for saying that because I think that I mean that's what Main reasons I have a podcast, right?
Because like the difference to me, there are, you know, older overweight men, who develop sleep apnea, when they gained a lot of weight, they usually have really high each eyes.
They go on CPAP and they do just fine, but then there's everybody else, right?
Who I don't feel like the the current set-up is really helping as well as it could be right.
There's there's a lot of especially like younger A thin or women who is more of the structure of, you know, that they're facing their Airway and and like they're just not like they're usually they're each eye isn't very high but they have pretty severe symptoms.
So I hope in the future they'll be a lot more research about all the different people like you know what the different issues are and how to treat it more effectively.
Of hopefully the NIH nhlbi will fund this and I can sort of answer some of that questions and yeah.
And, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with there's some new science showing that doing 3D photography of the face cranial.
Facial 3D photograph.
When you pump it through the machine learning is actually predictive of if you have a bad sleep apnea, I mean, I haven't seen that research but like, yeah, I would totally say no.
That was the case.
Just from write the number of us that look, this Away with really long faces and underdeveloped drawers and you know like it just yeah I mean that's great though if they did that research to show it.
So that's there is a couple predictive models that show it.
There's also something else I'm exploring, I won't go into too much details on it, but a dentist you don't want some other scientists to jump in, not that paranoid if they want to solve it better than any more than welcome to.
But you can do some imagery on the esophagus basically the breathing tube and also pump that through the machine learning and it'll pick up you know similar to how like they've shown that you can give the machine learning a photograph of like a man you know a mammogram and it'll pick up on the breast cancer better than
The eyes when you're saying, you're pumping it into machine learning.
And means that the clever machine is looking for similarities in the people's faces that have sleep apnea and is able to say we find this money.
I don't really write.
So I can tell, I mean you just made some hypotheses with what you just said with a long face and stuff.
I'm not even worried.
I mean, there's probably some truth to that and I think Think you're probably right, but this is like the machine is like picking up on these minut patterns that might not even be like perceptible to a human being.
So what's needed though for to build.
That is the data essentially.
So, I need some reference data to train the model, so I need to collect data that I think is going to be predictive of phenotyping people, and I'm actually curious to hear if you have any As I'm going to try to collect as much as I can and then so many ideas and then like follow them for like six weeks.
These are going to be people that are non-compliant CPAP individuals.
Why don't you know, those the Rhymes.
There's a lot, you know, 50% of people are nothing and I and then I'm going to try to phenotype how different treatments are more or less effective for different types of people with insomnia, are sorry with sleep apnea.
Might stop me.
Have I lost?
Yeah, that's exactly what we need.
Yeah, thank you.
And actually, the part of the big problem that I see in this space is all of the medical professionals are selling their own thing.
And I think that that's exactly what the problem is.
Yeah, that is really what the problem is.
Yeah, you got obviously the dentist with a great solution, you have the pulmonologist with you know, the most effective solution but the Adherence is poor, right?
And you know, even people who do all sorts of surgeries that may or may not work for all right there, I'm not going to even touch the surgeries because I just find anything that vasive.
I just, I don't know, I think maybe there is a place for it, but to be honest you were people get surgeries is like out of my do might be a bit difficult.
I mean, that, I mean, there's so much to say like that's what's really exactly.
Lee, what we need?
I mean, you hear from a lot of a lot of the different experts.
I've interviewed on the podcast will say, well, of course, you know, I just heard dr.
William Noah, speaking at the Philadelphia sleep conference and he's talking about will of course people who are morbidly obese or not going to do well with an oral Appliance or because of the pressures and they need CPAP.
To open everything up and just all these things but it's like that's not nobody is communicating that was patients at.
All right, like patients are just being told.
This is another treatment option.
Well, oral appliances like work, super well for people who their tongue is falling back in their Airway.
And bringing the tongue forward is going to solve the problem, but people who have a collapsing Airway and it's not just the tongue, that's the issue.
You like that's not going to solve it, right?
So it's trying to understand like yeah, exactly what you just said, like the different phenotypes.
And which the most effective treatments are going to be for those people.
Yeah, and I do, it's expensive, right?
Like you start with, I mean, almost everybody goes through this thing where they go see a doctor and they get prescribed CPAP and then, the either managed to make do with it or they or they do really well.
Some people do really well.
Or they fail.
And then they're kind of like back height there in the wild West trying to figure out themselves, you know?
Like so yes it's really tricky and it's very expensive because the more things that you try, you know, you're not getting a refund for the custom oral Appliance.
She just paid for true.
So yeah, it would be really helpful to know a lot of stuff ahead of time, I think.
No, yes, that's I'm trying to figure out a way to easily phenotype people basically.
And possibly even diagnose, Without an overnight study, right?
So that would be crazy.
You got to be a little bit crazy to get the grant.
So but then also, you know, there are analogous also say there are good.
Good doctors out there.
So like one of our news and I like the right, the a good doctor would be like, okay clearly this oral Appliance, you know, one of our one of my advisors for my company.
Dr. Randall Evans is a pulmonologist and he will satisfies.
The problem with people meaning if they're really not going to use a CPAP will give them other treatment.
Yes, there are like I cannot stress enough that there are some excellent doctors out there like you know, I just I think because of the job, I do a lot of what I hear about is like not necessarily like I know some just right, excellent doctors all over the place but they don't live in like rural.
You hear the horror stories, the stuff from people who are trying to Cobble together some sort of treatment plan with a primary care physician because they're not even close enough to, you know, a teaching hospital or somewhere that has a Sleep Clinic even.
So it's I mean, there's people being, you know, tested at home and getting a CPAP and very little, you know, held and they don't really know.
So that's kind of I think I'm just like Probably because of all of the patients that I talk to, you know, I'm aware that like not everybody has access to a great doctor unfortunately, but the last things are hard to come by but like ideally, like, every dentist, every Pono.
And I like, the dentist because almost everyone, it's almost a doctor.
People see the most of us in the United States.
So, I like the, I like trying to figure out things for them as, for me, People is nice which have so many telltale signs of sleep.
So I sort of see the dentist as the pathway in order to build more accessible accessibility to this.
But what I want the debt I want the dentist to have the tools to be able to say exactly what you just said.
Yeah, I I could give you this oral.
Appliance, it's really not going to work for you.
You really need CPAP.
There needs to be like some kind of way of making that decision and also going the other way for the pulmonologist.
Like I get your non-compliant with CPAP you're a mild case of sleep apnea and your phenotype shows that this might work well for you.
Maybe you would just be better off with the oral Appliance.
They're not financially as motivated to do that.
But I think I think I think think some sort of standardized and You know, test or the moment.
I feel like we're relying so much on individual doctors and dentists say.
So right like some of whom are excellent and have really excellent clinical judgment.
And some people who maybe just, you know like there's certain dentists who don't do this all the time like they'll make some oral appliances for sleep apnea but it's not really the respectful T.
So I feel like anything we could do to make it more standardized to see.
This, you know, I mean nasal don't even start me on nasal obstruction and how that plays into this, but everybody to me should be having their nose examined and there's actually like a, it's a great Point.
So you know, like somebody wouldn't really bad nasal obstruction who, you know, like has a huge tongue and, you know, this isn't it.
I should have talked to you baby.
I finish this brand.
Those are all the things that you mentioned.
How about like, Like allergies or something like that?
Do you say I mean?
Because that was a big thing that happened to me recently realized that my allergy shots wore off.
And I have a strong allergy to dust mites.
So, we just got these, like, special pillow cases that block out the might space.
That's what I want to an ENT.
And that's what he suggested.
So I mean, I guess that's and so allergies might also play a role in the nose as well, so I'm like, sort of Clearing you here, so sorry to turn the interview around.
So is there a way to be like okay this is a bad allergy day instead of doing the nasal CPAP I'll have the masks.
You can do either one sometimes like you'll have it.
So here's what happens to me.
So mostly I use a full face mask because I almost always have something going on with my nose.
But if I have like I've been to the ante He and everything and they said they didn't kind of rush to say let's do.
I do have a bit of a deviated septum and I do have like some enlarged turbine has but they weren't like let's do surgery right away.
They said you have really really small nasal architecture.
Like there's just not enough room and you have like really bad allergies, right?
So they gave me like all sorts of steroids to shove up my nose.
If there's no, if there's nothing.
There's not like thick, yellow pollen around or anything.
You know I'm doing pretty good and I've been breathing through my nose really well during the day then I will do.
So I'll do the whole nasal cleansing and where you do.
Like I do the X clear like the sales whole thing and then I put in my steroid spray as directed by the NT and then I will do some little Will either do your nasal pills and mask or I put those little, you know, like me or whatever.
Like to expand your.
And then I'll wear a nasal mask.
And then you'll use the nasal CPAP.
But most masks aren't I just do the full face mask mainly because I'm totally used to.
It is comfy.
But it but it's not as good to sleep like that, right?
Because you really should be breathing through your nose, trying to make it more accessible.
I mean, I think the asked of like come to the sleep lab and stay up all night or you know, and sleep here all night, it's just hard for a lot of people to do that.
It's really hard.
If there were some I thought experiment is, is there any way that a dentist when you go to your normal, dentist?
You know if you're Or a good dental, patient, because I see you every six months, there's a real opportunity there and I think every dentist, I'm actually shocked that they don't do that more, don't do it because it seems like they're financially motivated should ask if the person is, you know, having trouble breathing.
And everyone should get basically the stop bang or something like that.
You fill out this survey then you have a conversation with the dentist and the dentist like seems like you might A problem here, let's do this extra some extra testing on you come back in 6 months or you know, come back next time.
And then they would do this sort of, you know, scoping and visualization of the face and stuff.
And I hope something to do with their nose.
Oh, I know you're bringing me down this.
Other path that I know I should have included.
I mean, I think Think there's definitely it.
That's really interesting like looking at people's, you know, faces and what data you can get from that is really interesting.
Thank you, I try.
So what I love about that is I don't know if you've heard of there's a guy called Chris Kelly who's in Australia, I don't suppose you listen to my podcast episode with him to do.
Now, what how do you spell the last name?
Pally kelly128 has a company which Essentially has changed the model so that people start with their dentist and they do home, sleep apnea testing with their dentist and then the way that he hasn't set up in his company is the sleep test goes to a sleep, specialist like a doctor who makes the diagnosis and writes a prescription for a CPAP and a prescription for oral.
And then sends it back to the dentist.
The patient, never sees the doctor that the dentist explains what the options are.
And then the dentist is the one that the then, you know, deals with it and it's like exactly what I'm imagining.
So they so there's a lot of pros and cons, like, you really should talk to Chris.
So he's really interesting, great guy.
And I mean, if you think I'm nerding out with you, We ended up having to do like two episodes because I had so much more to ask him and but he's worked a lot with like he's a CPAP user himself and he a lot of his patients you know over the years have have you CPAP and he knows a lot about that as well.
So I think that he just feels exactly what you just said.
That people are have a more consistent relationship sometimes with their dentist.
So their dentist is seeing them every six months, whereas off, Oftentimes people will miss stand or Miss like, you know, physicals or check out.
So their doctor or they don't see the same doctor every time and that relationships not quite where we think is, right?
And a lot of people don't have a primary care physician so they're using like urgent care and it's kind of fragmented.
Whereas the dentist you know seem to Be in a good spot to be able to spot this.
Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Go to a dentist, every six months for my breath smell.
So there's like a so there's like a more physical.
Yeah, than, and like, you're not like dealing with your mortality, as much, right?
And your mind, when you see your dentist even, they can definitely help with my doctors.
Gonna tell me all about my cholesterol.
And I have to like you write happy eating chocolate.
Besides the pain of, you know, getting a bloody mouth to go to the dentist.
Yeah, so I do think like for like you're probably not looking at kids are you with what you're hoping to do know?
So this would be, we would actually recruit.
I think I wrote 35 to 60 Like midlife, when you get your Grant and you need some people, you let me know.
Oh, I will for sure.
And all I was gonna say about kids is that there's actually a really good resource that I keep banging on about and there's a group called The breathe Institute in California, who put together a ferris 6.
It's called the fairest 6.
Have you heard of that?
Fer RAF a I re St dot org and there's a free pdf that they they made it for clinicians.
So they mainly were thinking about dentists screening and kids for Sleep Disorder breathing.
So, sleep disorder breathing including sleep apnea but but all the way from mouth-breathing to severe sleep apnea, right?
So the whole gamut and They did research where they picked up the bees were correlated with kids that has sleep disorder breathing.
So that I think has to kind of like, go in with whatever is happening, with adults, just to spot this earlier.
And if there's stuff that can be done for kids, just to, you know, retrain them to nasal, breathe and all of that.
That's where the myofunctional therapy.
So there's a lot of like, controversy about adults.
And myofunctional therapy and palak science, especially and all that, but with kids it's not very controversial.
I don't think I think that you know, as common sense like helping kids to breathe through their nose and have correct resting oral posture.
Really helps them.
So and I think it's like a yeah I really feel like that's what we should be doing for our at least kids should be evaluated to kind of see like if they have those things on that list, the chances are Are they could probably benefit from my emotional therapy.
My next step is a Pediatrics grant for children.
Oh my God.
You should totally do that.
Like, I would love someone to do that as well.
I just have, like a whole bunch of research.
I think everyone should be nice.
So you come to me, I'll give me another research ideas.
I'll try to implement, right?
So what kind of if you do get your Grant?
Like what kind of time frame?
Like, how long would that take?
From until 2025 is when we'd have our results.
All right, I mean that's not so long.
I feel like sometimes people are like yeah we're searching that.
We're going to have a results in 10 years.
Yeah so I'm usually doing it into year Clips.
Yeah I hope you got a funders me to come and tell us all about what happens.
And so tell people a little bit about like where they can find you and like where they can find the Sleep space.
Laughs and all that.
Yeah, so I mean we have some practical Solutions, meditations Smart, Alarm Clock.
I've actually asleep program, six weeks LEAP program for people that have problems, falling asleep, and staying asleep.
And also one for deeper sleep.
You can go to sleep space.com and you can try it for free for 30 days if you do sleep, space.com slash Union you and I oh n.
Okay, I'm going to put that link in the show.
Show notes so people can click it.
And what about connecting with you so you can connect with me through the app and there's a way of actually we have dr.
So it's a chatbot where you can communicate with and I'll speak to people on the chat bot as well.
So it's almost like 24/7 support about their sleep.
And then, you can also book with me through the app and stuff.
If you want to talk sleep, Simonson optimization.
The team of 25 sleep, coaches addressing all the issues.
So, I think you've had Teresa de Nikon know.
And, you know, her helping with, you know, sleep apnea compliance and navigating face masks and stuff like this.
If Kalin Shrum, who does the myofunctional therapy with us and then like a bunch of like biohackers, some hypnotherapists, all the things, Basically.
Well, I'll definitely put the link below and people can check it out.
So thanks very much for your time.
I appreciate it.